Greg Oden over Kevin Durant

[Lime]

will go down with Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan on the list of all-time great draft mistakes.

Oden so far this year has played 48 minutes. He has 10 personal fouls against 8 points. (He could have had 10 points had he not clanged two free throws off the back of the rim with 4.6 seconds left.)

That decision by Portland is the only thing keeping them from multiple titles in upcoming years. Imagine a Durant-Roy-Aldridge attack.

[HawkLax6]

Durant is a freak. As a fan of basketball, I can't wait to see what he does with the rest of his career. He has the potential to put up huge numbers.

[Andy Dufresne]

I never understood Durant over Oden at the time. I still don't understand.

[Tripper Harrison]

I never understood Durant over Oden at the time. I still don't understand.
An immobile(injured) shot-blocker vs. (yet matured)scoring machine

[nikolausp]

Durant was the best pure scorer to come out of college in the last 50 years (at the time of the draft), so Portland didn't want to take the risk on him... why??!??

What I think is ironic, is that, mathematically, the Celtics should have gotten Durant or Oden, and were bummed with their draft lottery misfortune, but they would have never won the NBA Title had they landed either of those 2 dudes.

[imissjoeyrange]

What is also interesting about Durant is that his team was worse when he was on the court last year than off, even though he is clearly the team's most talented player.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

What is also interesting about Durant is that his team was worse when he was on the court last year than off, even though he is clearly the team's most talented player.

That's pretty damning.

Where did you find +/- stats? I didn't see it on basketball-reference or ESPN.

[imissjoeyrange]

What is also interesting about Durant is that his team was worse when he was on the court last year than off, even though he is clearly the team's most talented player.

That's pretty damning.

Where did you find +/- stats? I didn't see it on basketball-reference or ESPN.

There was a big piece on true hoop about it...I'll try to find it.

Edit: here is the link: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/7054/memo-to-a-young-baller

[Iza]

I never understood Durant over Oden at the time. I still don't understand.
An immobile(injured) shot-blocker vs. (yet matured)scoring machine

The rationale, and I bought into it, is that a true center with developed defensive game and raw offensive talent is a rarity that can lead to multiple championship.

Nearly every team in the league has a guy who puts up 22-25 points a game. Oden was to give you 3 blocks, 12 boards, and shut down defense.

Clearly Oden has not lived up to the potential. Obviously. However, his value over Durant's at the time was very clear: what's the greater rarity in the NBA? An exceptional, true center or a scorer? It's the former, and that's why he was picked over Durant. Don't forget that Oden was a winner, too. I know that too often pro sports go for raw talent, but not only was Oden a rare talent, he also proved himself by taking his team to the NC as a frosh.

[Iza]

PS - the other factor was that Durant was not a sure bet.

Tomorrow if you saw a clone of him getting 25/12 in college, you would have the same skepticism. He benches 180pds? LOL! He's gonna get mopped in the NBA. It isn't just that Oden hasn't met expectations, it's the Durant has exceeded his. But asked to make the same gamble again, the majority would make the same choice, IMHO.

[The Incredible Hawk]

Oden is and always will be a goon. He sucks. I bet he plays 5 years tops.

[imissjoeyrange]

What is also interesting about Durant is that his team was worse when he was on the court last year than off, even though he is clearly the team's most talented player.

That's pretty damning.

Where did you find +/- stats? I didn't see it on basketball-reference or ESPN.

There was a big piece on true hoop about it...I'll try to find it.

Edit: here is the link: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/7054/memo-to-a-young-baller

Bump for SAL, think he missed this.

[JohnnyBootstrapsUSA#1fan]

What is also interesting about Durant is that his team was worse when he was on the court last year than off, even though he is clearly the team's most talented player.

This shouldn't be surprising. He's the most important player on the team, and he's hardly ever in foul trouble. He only spends extended minutes on the bench when a game is out of hand.

+/- is a figure that often requires more context.

Durant played 39 mpg last season.

[Edgecrusher7711]

What is also interesting about Durant is that his team was worse when he was on the court last year than off, even though he is clearly the team's most talented player.

This shouldn't be surprising. He's the most important player on the team, and he's hardly ever in foul trouble. He only spends extended minutes on the bench when a game is out of hand.

+/- is a figure that often requires more context.

Durant played 39 mpg last season.

However the "star" players of other crappy teams don't have the same +/-. I agree this is slightly overblown but I think it does go to show while Durant is a great offensive talent he has a lot to learn about offensive efficiency and most importantly team defense.

[JohnnyBootstrapsUSA#1fan]

What is also interesting about Durant is that his team was worse when he was on the court last year than off, even though he is clearly the team's most talented player.

This shouldn't be surprising. He's the most important player on the team, and he's hardly ever in foul trouble. He only spends extended minutes on the bench when a game is out of hand.

+/- is a figure that often requires more context.

Durant played 39 mpg last season.

However the "star" players of other crappy teams don't have the same +/-. I agree this is slightly overblown but I think it does go to show while Durant is a great offensive talent he has a lot to learn about offensive efficiency and most importantly team defense.

Offensive efficiency? You do realize he shot 48/86/42 last year, right?

I don't get why people who wade into this little debate just assume Durant is an indiscriminate chucker without actually looking at the numbers.

Dirk would have killed for those numbers last year, but I don't see anyone suggesting he has more to learn about offensive efficiency.

[Edgecrusher7711]

This shouldn't be surprising. He's the most important player on the team, and he's hardly ever in foul trouble. He only spends extended minutes on the bench when a game is out of hand.

+/- is a figure that often requires more context.

Durant played 39 mpg last season.

However the "star" players of other crappy teams don't have the same +/-. I agree this is slightly overblown but I think it does go to show while Durant is a great offensive talent he has a lot to learn about offensive efficiency and most importantly team defense.

Offensive efficiency? You do realize he shot 48/86/42 last year, right?

I don't get why people who wade into this little debate just assume Durant is an indiscriminate chucker without actually looking at the numbers.

Dirk would have killed for those numbers last year, but I don't see anyone suggesting he has more to learn about offensive efficiency.

Lol. Uh, yeah those are great numbers but that's not all there is. Once again he's an amazing offensive talent (and one of my favorite players to watch) but he has some things to work on when it comes to running an offense. Jesus nobody is saying the kid isn't good and my be great but he clearly as some things he can improve to help not only himself but his team.

Examples from True Hoop...
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/7054/memo-to-a-young-baller

Thanks to Synergy Sports, I have spent the last three hours watching video of you in the pick-and-roll last year.

On offense, when you're the ball handler in the pick-and-roll, the numbers show you're not very effective. And the video makes clear why: The idea, of course, is for your team to get a good look. Your superpower, however, is to get off a decent shot even when you're covered.

The way you're running the pick-and-roll, it looks like you're relying a little too much on your superpowers. In short, those picks are not getting you open, which is reflected in a low field goal percentage and a high turnover rate.

If you were sitting right here next to me, watching video, I imagine Coach Scott Brooks' voice would ring in your ears. Sometimes you go around the screen lackadaisically, failing to make things hard for your defender at all. Sometimes you don't wait for the screen to arrive. Sometimes the screener is set up at one angle, and you drive at another, so the screen has hardly any effect.

But the end result of all of those is you, with the ball on the move, and not open at all. (You'd have been better off, in most cases, just isolating ... at least that way Nenad Krstic's guy wouldn't be in your grille, too.)

And when you're far from the hoop, on the move, with one or two guys on you ... you bust out the superpowers. I saw about a dozen examples from last season alone of you taking that double-team to the hole, where two more defenders are waiting, and you shoot one-on-four. (The fact that you make those sometimes is amazing, but more impressive is the shovel pass to the rolling Krstic, or, one day, the kick-out to the dead-eye teammate the Thunder don't have.)

More common than driving against four guys, though, is taking a mid-range jumper against two. You make this shot more than most, but nobody makes it much at all. Efficient offenses take as few of these as possible.

What's especially clear in this video is that teams are more than happy to use pick-and-rolls as excuses to double-team you hard. A lot of times, it works, as they have succeeded in forcing very tough shots.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Basically Durant is making the game harder than it needs to be right now. Imagine how good he's going to be when he learns these little things. It's the exact same shit Jordan, Kobe learned. The funny thing is I bet his numbers stay similar. However his team will be better and he'll be better later in the year and at the end of games (once again similar to Jordan and Kobe).

Did you guys watch the Lakers/Thunder game a week ago? It was amazing watching the difference between he and Kobe (yes I realize Kobe has way more talent around him). But Kobe just looks like he owns the court. Everything is so damn easy for him. While Durant looks like an amazing talent that is having to use all of his skill to get shots. I can't wait until he has (or hope he gets) the same mental game that Kobe has because I think he's someone physically we may have never seen. A freak like Lebron but in a different way.

[JohnnyBootstrapsUSA#1fan]

Still a pretty funny discussion.

The stat dorks love ts% as the true measure of a player's offensive efficiency. Durant is averaging 30 ppg with a ts% above .600, in his 3rd season. Kobe has never had a ts% above .600. In comparing production with shots taken, Durant is more efficient than Bryant has been in his best seasons.

Durant isn't a perfect player, but offensive efficiency is about the last thing I'd criticize in his game.

[imissjoeyrange]

Still a pretty funny discussion.

The stat dorks love ts% as the true measure of a player's offensive efficiency. Durant is averaging 30 ppg with a ts% above .600, in his 3rd season. Kobe has never had a ts% above .600. In comparing production with shots taken, Durant is more efficient than Bryant has been in his best seasons.

Durant isn't a perfect player, but offensive efficiency is about the last thing I'd criticize in his game.

Unsurprisingly his +/- numbers are much better this year. It's scary to think how good he could be.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

I hate to regurgitate Simmons stuff twice in one day, but I haven't been getting much diversity in my sports sources over the last week or so.

He was talking about how great of a teammate Durant is and that his team is completely in love with him. An example was that the whole team bought and wore Durant's new shoes when they came out. That'd never happen with Kobe.

I haven't got a read on Durant's mental drive yet, but he seems like he could be one of the greats.

[MikeyJoe]

I hate to regurgitate Simmons stuff twice in one day, but I haven't been getting much diversity in my sports sources over the last week or so.

He was talking about how great of a teammate Durant is and that his team is completely in love with him. An example was that the whole team bought and wore Durant's new shoes when they came out. That'd never happen with Kobe.

I haven't got a read on Durant's mental drive yet, but he seems like he could be one of the greats.
A basketball guy on the radio here said that if he was the Bulls' GM, he would trade Rose and Noah for Durant in a heartbeat.

[Hawk_Kegmasters]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2007/10/29/PH2007102901732.jpg

:sad:

[imissjoeyrange]

I hate to regurgitate Simmons stuff twice in one day, but I haven't been getting much diversity in my sports sources over the last week or so.

He was talking about how great of a teammate Durant is and that his team is completely in love with him. An example was that the whole team bought and wore Durant's new shoes when they came out. That'd never happen with Kobe.

I haven't got a read on Durant's mental drive yet, but he seems like he could be one of the greats.
A basketball guy on the radio here said that if he was the Bulls' GM, he would trade Rose and Noah for Durant in a heartbeat.

I highly doubt that the Zombie Sonics would take that deal.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

A basketball guy on the radio here said that if he was the Bulls' GM, he would trade Rose and Noah for Durant in a heartbeat.

I'd trade Rose for a lot of people. He's a stud (which gives him value in a trade) but I don't think that kind of PG can take you very far. Isaiah is the only one I can think of that won a championship.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Still a pretty funny discussion.

The stat dorks love ts% as the true measure of a player's offensive efficiency. Durant is averaging 30 ppg with a ts% above .600, in his 3rd season. Kobe has never had a ts% above .600. In comparing production with shots taken, Durant is more efficient than Bryant has been in his best seasons.

Durant isn't a perfect player, but offensive efficiency is about the last thing I'd criticize in his game.

They criticized him last year (and he deserved it). This year he has improved and they have given him his due credit...

Kevin Durant may have the greatest plus/minus improvement in NBA history.

He was one of the very worst players in the league by that measure last season, and now he's second-best. Only Dirk Nowitzki rates better in Wayne Winston's adjusted plus/minus. As of today, Durant's Thunder are giving up 11.5 fewer points per hundred possessions when he's on the floor. And they're scoring 13.75 more. That's unbelievable. (Interestingly, the next best player in the NBA, according to this early-season measure, is Marc Gasol. Then LeBron James and Luol Deng. If those numbers seem a little funny ... it's early yet. Plus/minus means a lot more with bigger samples.)

Durant's agent, Aaron Goodwin, denies this has anything to do with a newfound regard for plus/minus. "Kevin is a great player working hard to get better on offense and defense each day," says Goodwin. " His team overall is playing better, and they are competitive in games now. Kevin Durant wants to be one of the best to have ever played the game, and he works hard toward that goal."

Meanwhile Winston is regretting his exact choice of words. "I should have said 'If KD played in the future like he played in his first two years I would not want him on my team.' Clearly he has made a fantastic improvement. ... I would certainly want him given how he plays now. He is first team NBA and possibly MVP."


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/11459/kevin-durant-eats-plusminus-for-breakfast

[Edgecrusher7711]

A basketball guy on the radio here said that if he was the Bulls' GM, he would trade Rose and Noah for Durant in a heartbeat.

I'd trade Rose for a lot of people. He's a stud (which gives him value in a trade) but I don't think that kind of PG can take you very far. Isaiah is the only one I can think of that won a championship.

What is "that kind of PG"? A good one? The best player on the team? I'm confused by this.

[Edgecrusher7711]

I hate to regurgitate Simmons stuff twice in one day, but I haven't been getting much diversity in my sports sources over the last week or so.

He was talking about how great of a teammate Durant is and that his team is completely in love with him. An example was that the whole team bought and wore Durant's new shoes when they came out. That'd never happen with Kobe.

I haven't got a read on Durant's mental drive yet, but he seems like he could be one of the greats.
A basketball guy on the radio here said that if he was the Bulls' GM, he would trade Rose and Noah for Durant in a heartbeat.

I highly doubt that the Zombie Sonics would take that deal.

I hight doubt the Bulls would do that deal. Doesn't make either team better.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

What is "that kind of PG"? A good one? The best player on the team? I'm confused by this.

A shoot first one.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

I highly doubt that the Zombie Sonics would take that deal.

I hight doubt the Bulls would do that deal. Doesn't make either team better.

I usually think your sports opinions are well informed, but you're out of your effin mind.

[Edgecrusher7711]

What is "that kind of PG"? A good one? The best player on the team? I'm confused by this.

A shoot first one.

You watch him play much? Hell, I'm sure he'd love to pass more if he had anybody around him that could shoot.

Btw he's averaging more APG than Tony Parker (he won a couple of titles).

[Edgecrusher7711]

I highly doubt that the Zombie Sonics would take that deal.

I hight doubt the Bulls would do that deal. Doesn't make either team better.

I usually think your sports opinions are well informed, but you're out of your effin mind.

How does trading Rose and Noah for Durant make the Bulls better? They'd be right around the same level. No doubt that Durant is a better player than either one of those but those are by far the Bulls two best players. Durant himself could not make up for both of them. It would be close but probably not really worth it for them to do. Especially since Rose is already an all-star, only a second year player and from Chicago.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3683493

I can't think for myself so I always defer to Simmons on these issues. Oden will haunt the T-blazers.

[jabberja]

Oden has definitely got the total package. Just give him time.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Btw he's averaging more APG than Tony Parker (he won a couple of titles).

Parker is a fairly good comparison, though Rose dominates the ball even more than Parker. I imagine he takes significantly more shots than Parker.

Just like Parker, Rose's ceiling is a contributor to a championship. Durant's is the centerpiece of championships.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

A basketball guy on the radio here said that if he was the Bulls' GM, he would trade Rose and Noah for Durant in a heartbeat.

I'd trade Rose for a lot of people. He's a stud (which gives him value in a trade) but I don't think that kind of PG can take you very far. Isaiah is the only one I can think of that won a championship.

Rose is a banana. They need another star to win any meaningful playoff rounds. He has elevated his game this year durng the amazing 5 game road streak, I think his ankle bothered him ealrier in the year and Vinny is finally getting out of the way of this team.

Rose is not getting traded anytime soon. Heinrich appears to be the recent trade bait as of today.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Btw he's averaging more APG than Tony Parker (he won a couple of titles).

Parker is a fairly good comparison, though Rose dominates the ball even more than Parker. I imagine he takes significantly more shots than Parker.

Just like Parker, Rose's ceiling is a contributor to a championship. Durant's is the centerpiece of championships.

How could you possibly know this? Do you think the same thing about Chris Paul? Of course Rose is going to need players around him. But there's no reason he couldn't be the best player on his team. Christ he's only in his second year and even with the early injury he's at 20 and 6.

[Edgecrusher7711]

A basketball guy on the radio here said that if he was the Bulls' GM, he would trade Rose and Noah for Durant in a heartbeat.

I'd trade Rose for a lot of people. He's a stud (which gives him value in a trade) but I don't think that kind of PG can take you very far. Isaiah is the only one I can think of that won a championship.

Rose is a banana. They need another star to win any meaningful playoff rounds. He has elevated his game this year durng the amazing 5 game road streak, I think his ankle bothered him ealrier in the year and Vinny is finally getting out of the way of this team.

Rose is not getting traded anytime soon. Heinrich appears to be the recent trade bait as of today.

Hinrich should be traded. He brings little value to the Bulls. They need to get his salary off the books so they can make a move at one if not two of the big FAs.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

I'd trade Rondo and Perkins for Durant. Rondo is better than Rose and Perkins is better than Noah.

[Hawk_Kegmasters]

Oden has definitely got the total package. Just give him time.

http://cache-03.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/11/2010/02/500x_odenslittlepony.jpg

[Edgecrusher7711]

I'd trade Rondo and Perkins for Durant. Rondo is better than Rose and Perkins is better than Noah.

Rondo was better than Rose last year. Very debatable this year. Perkins is NOT better than Noah. Jesus dude Noah is 12 and 12.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

I'd trade Rondo and Perkins for Durant. Rondo is better than Rose and Perkins is better than Noah.

Rondo was better than Rose last year. Very debatable this year. Perkins is NOT better than Noah. Jesus dude Noah is 12 and 12.

Rose is not close to Rondo.

Perkins is leading the league in FG% and is an absolute monster on D. You should see him work Dwight Howard over every matchup. It's funny.

[Jimmie Dimmick]

I'd trade Rondo and Perkins for Durant. Rondo is better than Rose and Perkins is better than Noah.

Rondo was better than Rose last year. Very debatable this year. Perkins is NOT better than Noah. Jesus dude Noah is 12 and 12.

I'm impressed with the way that Noah has brought his game up to the NBA level. I thought there was about a 1% chance that he would get more than a cup of coffee in the NBA.

[Edgecrusher7711]

I'd trade Rondo and Perkins for Durant. Rondo is better than Rose and Perkins is better than Noah.

Rondo was better than Rose last year. Very debatable this year. Perkins is NOT better than Noah. Jesus dude Noah is 12 and 12.

Rose is not close to Rondo.

Perkins is leading the league in FG% and is an absolute monster on D. You should see him work Dwight Howard over every matchup. It's funny.

Dude. Ugh.

[MikeyJoe]

I'd trade Rondo and Perkins for Durant. Rondo is better than Rose and Perkins is better than Noah.

Rondo was better than Rose last year. Very debatable this year. Perkins is NOT better than Noah. Jesus dude Noah is 12 and 12.

Rose is not close to Rondo.
Gonna have to disagree there. Rondo is probably a better pure PG than Rose right now, but there's no way that Rose is "not close" to Rondo as an overall player.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Rondo was better than Rose last year. Very debatable this year. Perkins is NOT better than Noah. Jesus dude Noah is 12 and 12.

Rose is not close to Rondo.
Gonna have to disagree there. Rondo is probably a better pure PG than Rose right now, but there's no way that Rose is "not close" to Rondo as an overall player.

Rose is a punk dude. Not even top 10 pg in the league right now.

And f Noah and is 12/12/2, 20 PER. He's a travesty on the defensive end as well.

[MikeyJoe]

Oh, and reputed "working over" of Dwight Howard aside, I'd take Noah's 12 rebounds per game over Perkins's 8.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Btw Rose in January (he improved every month btw). I'd say he's starting to take shit over.

23 ppg, 6.5 apg, 4.5 rpg

[Lime]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=3683493

I can't think for myself so I always defer to Simmons on these issues. Oden will haunt the T-blazers.

The funny thing is I don't think that there is a team that doesn't make the same pick if they have the #1. A perceived can't-miss center still trumps a perceived can't-miss wing.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Rose is not close to Rondo.
Gonna have to disagree there. Rondo is probably a better pure PG than Rose right now, but there's no way that Rose is "not close" to Rondo as an overall player.

Rose is a punk dude. Not even top 10 pg in the league right now.

And f Noah and is 12/12/2, 20 PER. He's a travesty on the defensive end as well.

As long as you're looking up PER, is Rose top. 10 among PGs?

[Edgecrusher7711]

Oh, and reputed "working over" of Dwight Howard aside, I'd take Noah's 12 rebounds per game over Perkins's 8.

Well against Perkins and Boston Howard is only averaging
11 ppg, 15 rpg, 3.5 bpg in 3 games

of course in his 1 game vs Noah and the Bulls...
9, 12 and 2

;)

[Edgecrusher7711]

Gonna have to disagree there. Rondo is probably a better pure PG than Rose right now, but there's no way that Rose is "not close" to Rondo as an overall player.

Rose is a punk dude. Not even top 10 pg in the league right now.

And f Noah and is 12/12/2, 20 PER. He's a travesty on the defensive end as well.

As long as you're looking up PER, is Rose top. 10 among PGs?

Not sure let me check. I know he's 2 (per) behind Rondo.

Edit: nope 12th. But hey if you want Luke Ridnor and Lou Williams over Rose go for it.

Lol, Tony Parker is 16th and Jason Kidd is 17th

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

One problem the Bulls are facing is lack of depth. Noah/Miller have way too many minutes and its going to bite them in the ass if they don't start resting them more.

I'm not sure what trade evil Lord Gar/Pax has in store for the break but I bet Heinrich is finally traded but I just am unsure who they are targeting.

[Edgecrusher7711]

One problem the Bulls are facing is lack of depth. Noah/Miller have way too many minutes and its going to bite them in the ass if they don't start resting them more.

I'm not sure what trade evil Lord Gar/Pax has in store for the break but I bet Heinrich is finally traded but I just am unsure who they are targeting.

The Bulls are pretending to care about this year. I'd almost rather they tank so they could get a good pick along with the FA pickups. The only reason they're even remotely close is playing in the East.

Outside of Rose, Noah and Thomas (when they let him play) everybody else is crap and can go.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Btw I'm not sure I'd trade Perkins and Rondo for Durant either. If you think both have hit close to their full potential I'd go for it. But the combined upside of both of those players may not be worth it.

As someone that's watched Rose quite a bit I don't think Rose in anywhere near his potential. He's 21 yrs old. Only in his second year and only in the last month is he finally healthy. Plus dumbass VDN is finally letting him play.

We saw a glimpse of what he's capable of in the playoffs v Boston. I'd say we give him a little more time to see if he's NBA championship caliber.

[Hawk_Kegmasters]

Oh, and reputed "working over" of Dwight Howard aside, I'd take Noah's 12 rebounds per game over Perkins's 8.

Well against Perkins and Boston Howard is only averaging
11 ppg, 15 rpg, 3.5 bpg in 3 games



He's averaging 3.5 bpg in 3 games? That's amazing!

[Edgecrusher7711]

Oh, and reputed "working over" of Dwight Howard aside, I'd take Noah's 12 rebounds per game over Perkins's 8.

Well against Perkins and Boston Howard is only averaging
11 ppg, 15 rpg, 3.5 bpg in 3 games



He's averaging 3.5 bpg in 3 games? That's amazing!

They're like sacks you can get halves ;)

Btw it's actually 3.67

[Santa Anna's Leg]

We saw a glimpse of what he's capable of in the playoffs v Boston.

Allowing the guy he's guarding to average a triple double for 7 games?

[MikeyJoe]

We saw a glimpse of what he's capable of in the playoffs v Boston.

Allowing the guy he's guarding to average a triple double for 7 games?
Rondo's stats for last year's Bulls series:

RB/AST/Pts
9.3/11.6/19.4

PWNED! (boyzlong)

He probably would have it if Rose hadn't shut his shit down in games 6 and 7.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Hehe. Point taken.

Really though, does defense not matter to you guys who love Rose? He's an awful defensive PG. His steal to turnover ratio is like 0.3

[imissjoeyrange]

Hehe. Point taken.

Really though, does defense not matter to you guys who love Rose? He's an awful defensive PG. His steal to turnover ratio is like 0.3

It bothers me, although I think it is something he will (hopefully) get better at with time. My major concern with Rose is the severe mental retardation.

[MikeyJoe]

Hehe. Point taken.

Really though, does defense not matter to you guys who love Rose? He's an awful defensive PG. His steal to turnover ratio is like 0.3

It bothers me, although I think it is something he will (hopefully) get better at with time. My major concern with Rose is the severe mental retardation.
He needs to take some sort of vocal lessons. He's really limiting his career opportunities.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Hehe. Point taken.

Really though, does defense not matter to you guys who love Rose? He's an awful defensive PG. His steal to turnover ratio is like 0.3

It bothers me, although I think it is something he will (hopefully) get better at with time. My major concern with Rose is the severe mental retardation.

Beyond scoring, what's really to like about the guy? He has some really bad numbers in certain categories, for a point guard.

Rank among qualifying point guards:
Assists/TO: 32
Steals: 27
Steals: Below 20

[Edgecrusher7711]

Hehe. Point taken.

Really though, does defense not matter to you guys who love Rose? He's an awful defensive PG. His steal to turnover ratio is like 0.3

It bothers me, although I think it is something he will (hopefully) get better at with time. My major concern with Rose is the severe mental retardation.

Beyond scoring, what's really to like about the guy? He has some really bad numbers in certain categories, for a point guard.

Rank among qualifying point guards:
Assists/TO: 32
Steals: 27
Steals: Below 20

Are you really this dense? The dude is 21 and only in his second year. Right now he is their offense. Christ the fact that he's doing anything with the complete fucktard of a coach that he has is completely amazing.

I'm beginning to think you've watched about 2 seconds of his games.

[MikeyJoe]

Beyond scoring, what's really to like about the guy? He has some really bad numbers in certain categories, for a point guard.
Bear in mind that you're talking about a guy in year 1.5 of his career. He's got amazing physical tools, and I think most of the excitement around him relates to his potential. Too bad his coach sucks balls.

[imissjoeyrange]

Hehe. Point taken.

Really though, does defense not matter to you guys who love Rose? He's an awful defensive PG. His steal to turnover ratio is like 0.3

It bothers me, although I think it is something he will (hopefully) get better at with time. My major concern with Rose is the severe mental retardation.

Beyond scoring, what's really to like about the guy? He has some really bad numbers in certain categories, for a point guard.

Rank among qualifying point guards:
Assists/TO: 32
Steals: 27
Steals: Below 20

He is ridiculously talented and he is only 21. Hopefully he learns to make better decisions and can play better defense - and there is a lot more to defense than getting steals. I think it is pretty clear that creating steals is low on his list of priorities on the defensive end of the court.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

[

Are you really this dense? The dude is 21 and only in his second year. Right now he is their offense.

What's that got to do with his non-existent defense?

The guy is a poor-man's Stephon Marbury. Nothing more.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

He is ridiculously talented and he is only 21. Hopefully he learns to make better decisions and can play better defense - and there is a lot more to defense than getting steals. I think it is pretty clear that creating steals is low on his list of priorities on the defensive end of the court.

Is his defensive priority giving up 19/9/11 for a 7 game playoff series?

[Edgecrusher7711]

[

Are you really this dense? The dude is 21 and only in his second year. Right now he is their offense.

What's that got to do with his non-existent defense?

The guy is a poor-man's Stephon Marbury. Nothing more.

The Game hacked your account.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

[

Are you really this dense? The dude is 21 and only in his second year. Right now he is their offense.

What's that got to do with his non-existent defense?

The guy is a poor-man's Stephon Marbury. Nothing more.

The Game hacked your account.

You like the guy, so you're being unreasonable. Like I said, the only model for success here is Isaiah, and I don't see Isaiah's intangibles in Rose. Nor Isaiah's defensive ability.

Trade mini-Marbury while he has value.

[Edgecrusher7711]

What's that got to do with his non-existent defense?

The guy is a poor-man's Stephon Marbury. Nothing more.

The Game hacked your account.

You like the guy, so you're being unreasonable. Like I said, the only model for success here is Isaiah, and I don't see Isaiah's intangibles in Rose. Nor Isaiah's defensive ability.

Trade mini-Marbury while he has value.

You hate the guy so you're being unreasonable. We all know this goes back to the Rose v Rondo playoff series. You don't like him. We get it.

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Marbury was very very bad in the Bulls/Celts series.

[imissjoeyrange]

He is ridiculously talented and he is only 21. Hopefully he learns to make better decisions and can play better defense - and there is a lot more to defense than getting steals. I think it is pretty clear that creating steals is low on his list of priorities on the defensive end of the court.

Is his defensive priority giving up 19/9/11 for a 7 game playoff series?

Not everyone can hold a 20 year old to 20/6/6 like Rondo.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Beyond scoring, what's really to like about the guy? He has some really bad numbers in certain categories, for a point guard.
Bear in mind that you're talking about a guy in year 1.5 of his career. He's got amazing physical tools, and I think most of the excitement around him relates to his potential. Too bad his coach sucks balls.

Anyways back to his potential...

In the last 19 games:
19 gms, 23.2 ppg, 6.4 apg, 4.7 rpg, 2.7 topg, 0.8 spg, 0.4 bpg, 49% FG, 33.3% 3pt, 74.7% FT
52.5% TS%
linear weighted PER is 20.9

Led the shit ass Bulls to 5 straight road wins against Phoenix, Houston, San Antonio, Oklahoma, and New Orleans – all above .500 teams

I really, really wish the Bulls had a legit 2 to stretch the court for him right now. It would be nice to see him with even close to the talent of Pierce, Garnett, Allen and Perkins around him.

I say we give him a year or two.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Not everyone can hold a 20 year old to 20/6/6 like Rondo.

And 5 turnovers. Don't forget the 5 turnovers.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Stephon Marbury at age 21:

PTS 21.3
Asts 8.9
Rebs 2.9
Stls 1.2
TOV 3.3

Derrick Rost at 21:
PTS 19.7
Asts 5.9
Rebs 3.7
Stls 0.8
TOV 2.8

[Edgecrusher7711]

Rajon Rondo at age 21:

PTS 10.6
Asts 5.1
Rebs 4.2
Stls 1.70
TOV 1.9

Derrick Rost at 21:
PTS 19.7
Asts 5.9
Rebs 3.7
Stls 0.8
TOV 2.8

Give me Rose.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Btw....

Deron Williams 2nd Year:
16 ppg, 9 apg, 3 rpg, 3 to, 1 st

Chris Paul 2nd Year:
17 ppg, 9 apg, 4 rpg, 2.5 to, 1.8 st

Tony Parker 2nd Year;
15.5 ppg, 5 apg, 3 rpg, 2.4 to, .9 st

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Why do you keep throwing Tony Parker out like his production is something to hope for?

[Edgecrusher7711]

Why do you keep throwing Tony Parker out like his production is something to hope for?

Tony Parker is pretty good and has won titles. He is not Stephon Marbury.

I'm throwing out numbers to show that Rose is fitting right in with other PGs in his age/experience bracket.

[imissjoeyrange]

http://indyposted.com/10168/ray-allen-to-the-bulls-for-hinrich-salmons-and-thomas/

[MikeyJoe]

If the Celtics are seriously offering that, the Bulls need to take it.

[Edgecrusher7711]

http://indyposted.com/10168/ray-allen-to-the-bulls-for-hinrich-salmons-and-thomas/

I'm down. I like Thomas but Salmons and Hinrich are crap. Allen will move Rose's assist numbers up to where maybe dipshit will think he's a worth a fuck point guard. Then they can kick his ass to the curb and go after the big boys this summer.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Just a warning, but Allen is not what he once was and is teetering on complete collapse. I'd guess next year is his last in the league.

If you're planning on being in the finals, he Ds up Kobe about as well as anyone.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Just a warning, but Allen is not what he once was and is teetering on complete collapse. I'd guess next year is his last in the league.

Good. He's an expiring contract that shoots better than Salmons. That's perfect.

[Edgecrusher7711]

If you're planning on being in the finals, he Ds up Kobe about as well as anyone.

Who?

[Santa Anna's Leg]

If you're planning on being in the finals, he Ds up Kobe about as well as anyone.

Who?

Ray Allen.

Don't know what it is, but he gives Kobe problems. Not a spectacular defender otherwise.

[MikeyJoe]

Just a warning, but Allen is not what he once was and is teetering on complete collapse. I'd guess next year is his last in the league.

Good. He's an expiring contract that shoots better than Salmons. That's perfect.
+1

He can continue on the brink of collapse to the tune of 15 points per game while the Bulls ride out this year.

[Edgecrusher7711]

If you're planning on being in the finals, he Ds up Kobe about as well as anyone.

Who?

Ray Allen.

Don't know what it is, but he gives Kobe problems. Not a spectacular defender otherwise.

Yeah, let's just say the Bulls aren't worried about defending anybody in the finals. ;)

Also about the only thing Hinrich can do is play decent D so the Celts wouldn't be losing anything there. You would need to tape Salmons to a chair so he never sees the court. When he's good he's pretty good. Of course that happens 10% of the time. Otherwise all he does is miss wide open shots (Rose assists just bricking away). Thomas is the one good get in that trade but he's an expiring contract too.

[JohnnyBootstrapsUSA#1fan]

Allen is not a good value for Chicago, or most teams for that matter. The Bulls have some pieces to move and can make waves in a few years if they're careful in their choices, but I wouldn't want Allen if I were them. He's 35 years old, nearing the end of his career and his production is nosediving. It makes sense for Boston to get rid of him. They're basically hoping for someone to do them a favor and give them a solid 2G and an expiring contract for an old man who may not be in the league beyond 2011. I can imagine how bad Bulls fans want to get rid of Hinrich and Salmons, however.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Just a warning, but Allen is not what he once was and is teetering on complete collapse. I'd guess next year is his last in the league.

Good. He's an expiring contract that shoots better than Salmons. That's perfect.
+1

He can continue on the brink of collapse to the tune of 15 points per game while the Bulls ride out this year.

Yep. This only helps the Bulls losing more games. Yet at the same time it still helps Rose's development. Plus outside of possibly falling into the lottery it might give them an excuse to fire VDN (not that his horrific coaching isn't enough of one).

[Edgecrusher7711]

Allen is not a good value for Chicago, or most teams for that matter. The Bulls have some pieces to move and can make waves in a few years if they're careful in their choices, but I wouldn't want Allen if I were them. He's 35 years old, nearing the end of his career and his production is nosediving. It makes sense for Boston to get rid of him. They're basically hoping for someone to do them a favor and give them a solid 2G and an expiring contract for an old man who may not be in the league beyond 2011. I can imagine how bad Bulls fans want to get rid of Hinrich and Salmons, however.

Huh? The Bulls are able to clear Hinrich's long term contract for Allen's expiring. They weren't bringing Salmons or Thomas back next year anyways. How is this bad for the Bulls again?

[MikeyJoe]

Allen is not a good value for Chicago, or most teams for that matter. The Bulls have some pieces to move and can make waves in a few years if they're careful in their choices, but I wouldn't want Allen if I were them. He's 35 years old, nearing the end of his career and his production is nosediving. It makes sense for Boston to get rid of him. They're basically hoping for someone to do them a favor and give them a solid 2G and an expiring contract for an old man who may not be in the league beyond 2011. I can imagine how bad Bulls fans want to get rid of Hinrich and Salmons, however.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, doesn't Allen's contract expire this year? I thought they were just taking him to free up Hinrich's salary.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Allen is not a good value for Chicago, or most teams for that matter. The Bulls have some pieces to move and can make waves in a few years if they're careful in their choices, but I wouldn't want Allen if I were them. He's 35 years old, nearing the end of his career and his production is nosediving. It makes sense for Boston to get rid of him. They're basically hoping for someone to do them a favor and give them a solid 2G and an expiring contract for an old man who may not be in the league beyond 2011. I can imagine how bad Bulls fans want to get rid of Hinrich and Salmons, however.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, doesn't Allen's contract expire this year? I thought they were just taking him to free up Hinrich's salary.

It does expire this year.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_does_Ray_Allen's_contract_end

[MikeyJoe]

And the Bulls are nowhere near a contender this year, so I don't think anyone is worried about Allen's long term prospects.

[Lime]

Allen is not a good value for Chicago, or most teams for that matter. The Bulls have some pieces to move and can make waves in a few years if they're careful in their choices, but I wouldn't want Allen if I were them. He's 35 years old, nearing the end of his career and his production is nosediving. It makes sense for Boston to get rid of him. They're basically hoping for someone to do them a favor and give them a solid 2G and an expiring contract for an old man who may not be in the league beyond 2011. I can imagine how bad Bulls fans want to get rid of Hinrich and Salmons, however.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, doesn't Allen's contract expire this year? I thought they were just taking him to free up Hinrich's salary.

Yeah, Allen's contract is up at the end of the year.

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/2010/02/report_ainge_in.html

Bulls would clearly be looking to clear out space to make a run at Wade and Bosh this summer.

[MikeyJoe]

Looking into some more numbers, the Bulls are freeing up a lot of money if this is true. If they free up these players, and with the other guys whose contracts are expiring, they're committed to less than $30 million for the 2010/2011 season right now. That's a lot of room to play with free agency.

Now if they could only get a real coach.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Bulls would clearly be looking to clear out space to make a run at Wade and Bosh this summer.

Lebron or Wade I'm sure.

That'd be a shame if one of those two plus Bosh ended up with a shoot first point guard.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Bulls would clearly be looking to clear out space to make a run at Wade and Bosh this summer.

Lebron or Wade I'm sure.

That'd be a shame if one of those two plus Bosh ended up with a shoot first point guard.

Dick.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Btw good ole Bill Simmons tweeted this today..

First
CHI gets R.Allen/House expirings (2010 cap space!); SAC gets Deng + T.Allen/Scal exp's; BOS gets K.Martin, Nocioni + Hinrich. Who says no?

Then
PS: If I'm running the Bulls, my goal is a 2011 superteam (Noah, Bosh, LeBron, Rose, Joe Johnson). Gotta move Hinrich/Deng.

[Lime]

Bulls would clearly be looking to clear out space to make a run at Wade and Bosh this summer.

Lebron or Wade I'm sure.

That'd be a shame if one of those two plus Bosh ended up with a shoot first point guard.

I suppose LeBron would be in the mix as well, although it seems most of the speculation with him has been Miami, LA, one of the NYC teams, or staying with Cleveland. I've obviously let that cloud my thinking.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Bulls would clearly be looking to clear out space to make a run at Wade and Bosh this summer.

Lebron or Wade I'm sure.

That'd be a shame if one of those two plus Bosh ended up with a shoot first point guard.

I suppose LeBron would be in the mix as well, although it seems most of the speculation with him has been Miami, LA, one of the NYC teams, or staying with Cleveland. I've obviously let that cloud my thinking.

I think Lebron to Chicago is more likely than Wade to Chicago, despite it being Wade's hometown.

[MikeyJoe]

Holy shit. If the Bulls are dumping Deng too, then they're basically only bringing back Rose at $5 million, Noah at $3 million, James Johnson at $2 million, and Taj Gibson at $1 million. $11 million in 2010/2011 salaries.

[JohnnyBootstrapsUSA#1fan]

Allen is not a good value for Chicago, or most teams for that matter. The Bulls have some pieces to move and can make waves in a few years if they're careful in their choices, but I wouldn't want Allen if I were them. He's 35 years old, nearing the end of his career and his production is nosediving. It makes sense for Boston to get rid of him. They're basically hoping for someone to do them a favor and give them a solid 2G and an expiring contract for an old man who may not be in the league beyond 2011. I can imagine how bad Bulls fans want to get rid of Hinrich and Salmons, however.
Unless I'm misunderstanding, doesn't Allen's contract expire this year? I thought they were just taking him to free up Hinrich's salary.

Yeah, I didn't realize that.

[Lime]

Lebron or Wade I'm sure.

That'd be a shame if one of those two plus Bosh ended up with a shoot first point guard.

I suppose LeBron would be in the mix as well, although it seems most of the speculation with him has been Miami, LA, one of the NYC teams, or staying with Cleveland. I've obviously let that cloud my thinking.

I think Lebron to Chicago is more likely than Wade to Chicago, despite it being Wade's hometown.

Interesting. I disagree, mainly because I think that Wade is either going to stay in Miami or go to Chicago (most likely the former) while I think LeBron will legitimately have all those suitors.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Holy shit. If the Bulls are dumping Deng too, then they're basically only bringing back Rose at $5 million, Noah at $3 million, James Johnson at $2 million, and Taj Gibson at $1 million. $11 million in 2010/2011 salaries.

Not sure how serious they are about moving Deng. For sure they're trying to move Hinrich. He's got no position and is over paid. They only move Deng if they're pretty certain they're landing more than one of the big guys.

From all of the rumors out there it sounds like Bosh is the most likely. After that it's a big guessing game.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Btw good ole Bill Simmons tweeted this today..

CHI gets R.Allen/House expirings (2010 cap space!); SAC gets Deng + T.Allen/Scal exp's; BOS gets K.Martin, Nocioni + Hinrich. Who says no?



Isn't the answer to this question Sacramento?

[Edgecrusher7711]

Btw good ole Bill Simmons tweeted this today..

CHI gets R.Allen/House expirings (2010 cap space!); SAC gets Deng + T.Allen/Scal exp's; BOS gets K.Martin, Nocioni + Hinrich. Who says no?



Isn't the answer to this question Sacramento?

Maybe. Their problem is Evans is really a 2 and they have to play him at 1 with Martin there. Many people think they're trying to move Martin. Not sure if Deng is worth it or not. Deng is quite the enigma.

[Lime]

Btw good ole Bill Simmons tweeted this today..





Isn't the answer to this question Sacramento?

Maybe. Their problem is Evans is really a 2 and they have to play him at 1 with Martin there. Many people think they're trying to move Martin. Not sure if Deng is worth it or not. Deng is quite the enigma.

I think that they have to move Martin, but I'm not sure Deng + the ECs are worth it.

[Edgecrusher7711]

Isn't the answer to this question Sacramento?

Maybe. Their problem is Evans is really a 2 and they have to play him at 1 with Martin there. Many people think they're trying to move Martin. Not sure if Deng is worth it or not. Deng is quite the enigma.

I think that they have to move Martin, but I'm not sure Deng + the ECs are worth it.

I would tend to agree. Just not sure how much trade value Martin has. How's his contract, etc.

I think the other Bulls trade makes much more sense and is probably more likely. Either way about the only thing that will piss me off is if the Bulls bring on more contracts. It sounds completely insane but I wouldn't put it past the Bulls management. I have lost all faith in them.

[Lime]

Maybe. Their problem is Evans is really a 2 and they have to play him at 1 with Martin there. Many people think they're trying to move Martin. Not sure if Deng is worth it or not. Deng is quite the enigma.

I think that they have to move Martin, but I'm not sure Deng + the ECs are worth it.

I would tend to agree. Just not sure how much trade value Martin has. How's his contract, etc.

I think the other Bulls trade makes much more sense and is probably more likely. Either way about the only thing that will piss me off is if the Bulls bring on more contracts. It sounds completely insane but I wouldn't put it past the Bulls management. I have lost all faith in them.

Looks like he signed a five-year extension in 2007 for $55M. That extension started in 2008-09, so he would have three years left after this year.

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2008/8/13/592755/more-evidence-of-the-value

Not sure what the year-by-year breakdown/cap obligations are....if you just average it it would be $33M for the next three years with Martin turning 30 in the last year.

[Edgecrusher7711]

I think that they have to move Martin, but I'm not sure Deng + the ECs are worth it.

I would tend to agree. Just not sure how much trade value Martin has. How's his contract, etc.

I think the other Bulls trade makes much more sense and is probably more likely. Either way about the only thing that will piss me off is if the Bulls bring on more contracts. It sounds completely insane but I wouldn't put it past the Bulls management. I have lost all faith in them.

Looks like he signed a five-year extension in 2007 for $55M. That extension started in 2008-09, so he would have three years left after this year.

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2008/8/13/592755/more-evidence-of-the-value

Not sure what the year-by-year breakdown/cap obligations are....if you just average it it would be $33M for the next three years with Martin turning 30 in the last year.

So not great but you can live with that. Either way that probably makes the trade for not worth it Sacramento.

Of course we've seen worse in the NBA.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

So not great but you can live with that. Either way that probably makes the trade for not worth it Sacramento.

Of course we've seen worse in the NBA.

I think it's just Simmons trying to invent a good trade for Boston.

Like you said, the other seems more likely, though it's less beneficial to Boston.

[Lime]

I would tend to agree. Just not sure how much trade value Martin has. How's his contract, etc.

I think the other Bulls trade makes much more sense and is probably more likely. Either way about the only thing that will piss me off is if the Bulls bring on more contracts. It sounds completely insane but I wouldn't put it past the Bulls management. I have lost all faith in them.

Looks like he signed a five-year extension in 2007 for $55M. That extension started in 2008-09, so he would have three years left after this year.

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2008/8/13/592755/more-evidence-of-the-value

Not sure what the year-by-year breakdown/cap obligations are....if you just average it it would be $33M for the next three years with Martin turning 30 in the last year.

So not great but you can live with that. Either way that probably makes the trade for not worth it Sacramento.

Of course we've seen worse in the NBA.

Found a yearly breakdown. It's a backloaded (would be roughly $36M for the next three years) although I confess to not knowing how it works for the cap. It's actually a pretty good deal for a team, for comparison Iguodala is a year younger but is owed $40.5M for that same frame with a player option for $16M for 2014.

On the other hand, it is at such a range that I don't think Sacramento benefits from Deng + ECs.

[imissjoeyrange]

Martin will make $11.1 M in 2010/2011, $12.0 M in 2011/2012 and $12.9M in 2012/2013

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/sacramento.htm

[MikeyJoe]

This isn't terribly relevant, but I like this clip:

Eg5mzeBvNns

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

Noah is out for 2 weeks and its going to kill them.

As I rode by Madison Square Garden last month in a cab, I could not help but have this most unreal memory come to mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRFKhpMKX0E&feature=related