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View Full Version : Great Krauthammer column on Miranda Warnings.


Rolo Tomassi
05-09-2010, 10:05 AM
Here it is. Basically, no Miranda Warnings to terrorists, or at least if we're going to give them, then no Miranda Warnings until we're absolutely sure we've got all the valuable information we're going to get. This would necessarily extend the time period of the public safety exception to the Miranda Rules indefinitely.

Miranda Warnings and Public Safety

Law-enforcement officers should not Mirandize terrorism suspects until they have all the information they need to protect lives.

"[Law enforcement] interviewed Mr. Shahzad . . . under the public-safety exception to the Miranda rule. . . . He was eventually . . . Mirandized and continued talking." — John Pistole, FBI deputy director, May 4

All well and good. But what if Faisal Shahzad, the confessed Times Square bomber, had stopped talking? When you tell someone he has the right to remain silent, there is a distinct possibility that he will remain silent, is there not? And then what?

The authorities deserve full credit for capturing Shahzad within 54 hours. Credit is also due them for obtaining information from him by invoking the “public safety” exception to the Miranda rule.

But then Shahzad was Mirandized. If he had decided to shut up, it would have denied us valuable information — everything he is presumably telling us now about Pakistani contacts, training, plans for other possible plots beyond the Times Square attack.

The public-safety exception is sometimes called the “ticking-time-bomb” exception. But what about information regarding bombs not yet ticking but being planned and readied to kill later?

Think of the reason why we give any suspect Miranda warnings. It is not that you’re prohibited from asking questions before Mirandizing. You can ask a suspect anything you damn well please. You can ask him if he picks his feet in Poughkeepsie — but without Miranda warnings, the answers are not admissible in court.

In this case, however, Miranda warnings were superfluous. Shahzad had confessed to the car-bombing attempt while being interrogated under the public-safety exception. That’s admissible evidence. Plus, he left a treasure trove of physical evidence all over the place — which is how we caught him in two days.

Second, even assuming that by not Mirandizing him we might have jeopardized our chances of getting some convictions — so what? Which is more important: (a) gaining, a year or two hence, the conviction of a pigeon — the last and now least important link in this terror chain — whom we could surely get off the street with explosives and weapons charges, or (b) preventing future terror attacks on Americans by learning from Shahzad what he might know about terror plots in Pakistan and sleeper cells in the United States?

Even posing this choice demonstrates why the very use of the civilian judicial system to interrogate terrorists is misconceived, even if they are, like Shahzad, (naturalized) American citizens. America is the target of an ongoing jihadist campaign. The logical and serious way to defend ourselves is to place captured terrorists in military custody as unlawful enemy combatants. As former anti-terror prosecutor Andrew McCarthy notes in National Review, one of the six World War II German saboteurs captured in the U.S., tried by military commission, and executed was a U.S. citizen. It made no difference.

But let’s assume you’re wedded to the civilian-law-enforcement model, as the Obama administration is. At least make an attempt to expand the public-safety exception to Miranda in a way that takes into account the jihadist war that did not exist when that exception was narrowly drawn by the Supreme Court in the 1984 Quarles case.

The public-safety exception should be enlarged to allow law enforcement to interrogate, without Mirandizing, those arrested in the commission of terrorist crimes (and make the answers admissible) — until law enforcement is satisfied that vital intelligence related to other possible plots and threats to public safety has been sufficiently acquired.

This could be done by congressional statute. Or the administration could, in an actual case, refrain from Mirandizing until it had explored the outer limits of any plot — and then defend its actions before the courts, resting its argument on the Supreme Court’s own logic in the Quarles case: “We conclude that the need for answers to questions in a situation posing a threat to the public safety outweighs the need for the [Miranda] rule.”

Otherwise, we will be left — when a terrorist shuts up, as did the underwear bomber for five weeks — in the absurd position of capturing enemy combatants and then prohibiting ourselves from obtaining the information they have, and we need, to protect innocent lives.

My view is that we should treat enemy combatants as enemy combatants, whether they are U.S. citizens (Shahzad) or not (the underwear bomber). If, however, they are to be treated as ordinary criminals, then at least agree on this: no Miranda rights until we know everything that public safety demands we need to know.

mobyditch
05-09-2010, 10:08 AM
Its sad to see how the right wants to crap on our US constitution.. No wonder the democratic party has to defend it because its obvious the republican party won't.

DemondSanders
05-09-2010, 01:13 PM
Charles Krauthammer's Excellent article and the only RIGHT leaning article in that entire RAG today. It's laughable to see the idiotic piece by the indoctrinated pinhead, Eugene Robertson right next to Krauthammer's great article. Eugene wouldn't know an islamic jihadist if they put a bomb up his arse.

The DSM Ragister is so far in bed with the left-wing of the Corrupt-o-crat party, it cannot see the light of day, at this point in history.

pathetic.

Corporate Raider
05-09-2010, 01:26 PM
I had to laugh because before I even got to Moby's post I knew he would be all over this and be defending terrorists--anything to hate or cripple America Moby is all about it. Moby, you obviously hate this country, maybe even more then Chaorman Obama, so why the fuck don't you leave?? I don't get it. North Korea or Cuba would love to have you!

newsbreaker
05-09-2010, 01:31 PM
He is arguing that, in the limited circumstances surrounding the war on terror, the exception should swallow the rule. I'm not sure that would stand up to scrutiny (though I am far from convinced that Miranda should apply at all in these circumstances, nor that Miranda is necessary at all).

I am quite certain that the public safety exception can't be extended by Congress, however. The second alternative he discusses is the only practical way to achieve such an expansion, and even then the more certain course would be to directly challenge Miranda as applied in these circumstances. IMHO, that is the question that needs to be definitively answered one way or the other.

TH1974
05-09-2010, 07:43 PM
Slippery slope

Gushawk
05-09-2010, 10:32 PM
Holder is on it with him, based on his comments today. The notion of a "permanent" public safety exception for anyone accused of plotting terrorist activities seems rife with potential for abuse.

If it's limited to "caught red-handed" situations (like the two Krauthammer references) that would seem okay, but that line's probably not as easy to draw as it would seem.

And the whole notion that the executive branch can unilaterally declare people (including citizens) "enemies of the state" not entitled to Constitutional protections is extremely dangerous. I'm surprised tea party conservatives aren't more terrified by it.

Glen
05-10-2010, 07:50 AM
Holder is on it with him, based on his comments today. The notion of a "permanent" public safety exception for anyone accused of plotting terrorist activities seems rife with potential for abuse.

If it's limited to "caught red-handed" situations (like the two Krauthammer references) that would seem okay, but that line's probably not as easy to draw as it would seem.

And the whole notion that the executive branch can unilaterally declare people (including citizens) "enemies of the state" not entitled to Constitutional protections is extremely dangerous. I'm surprised tea party conservatives aren't more terrified by it.

This fiscon is. You said it well, the potential for abuse is obvious. Why limited government conservatives, who squawk about losing liberties, would think this is a good idea is beyond me.

nolookpass
05-10-2010, 08:44 AM
an enemy combatant should never be read "his rights."

We are at war, simpletons.

Glen
05-10-2010, 09:14 AM
an enemy combatant should never be read "his rights."

We are at war, simpletons.

When the enemy combatant is an American citizen, I disagree.

Debit One
05-10-2010, 09:22 AM
an enemy combatant should never be read "his rights."

We are at war, simpletons.

Are you willing to extend this to "suspected enemy combatant?"

Gushawk
05-10-2010, 09:44 AM
an enemy combatant should never be read "his rights."

We are at war, simpletons.

The problem is that we are "at war" with a tactic the use of which isn't limited to Muslims.

Rolo Tomassi
05-10-2010, 10:24 AM
an enemy combatant should never be read "his rights."

We are at war, simpletons.

The problem is that we are "at war" with a tactic the use of which isn't limited to Muslims.

Name those other than Muslims who have used that tactic against the U.S. within the last 10 years.

Gushawk
05-10-2010, 10:37 AM
an enemy combatant should never be read "his rights."

We are at war, simpletons.

The problem is that we are "at war" with a tactic the use of which isn't limited to Muslims.

Name those other than Muslims who have used that tactic against the U.S. within the last 10 years.

Limiting it to the past 10 years is awfully convenient, unless you believe the treat of home grown terrorism has been nearly eliminated, but here you go:

Joe Stack
Robert Goldstein
The Army of God...James Kopp, Scott Roeder

crazed_hoosier1
05-10-2010, 10:56 AM
an enemy combatant should never be read "his rights."

We are at war, simpletons.

When the enemy combatant is an American citizen, I disagree.

Me too. This seems like a very obvious dividing line.

Now, I am very sympathetic to making a proper delineation between acts of criminality and acts of war. And so is the Constitution, by the way (which is precisely why it gives Congress the power to suspend habeas corpus -- which it considers a "privilege", not a right -- in the event of rebellion or invasion).

Moreover, I've never been terribly concerned about a rote denial of Constitutional rights to foreign nationals -- particularly those who are enemy combatants.

But I don't read the Constitution to say "These things only apply in peacetime and towards those citizens who are not considered enemies of the state."

I'm all for not Mirandizing foreign enemy combatants. But anybody who enjoys Constitutional protections doesn't cease enjoying them simply because the government feels they're an enemy.

Gushawk
05-10-2010, 11:51 AM
I'm somewhat surprised by the general acceptance of the Miranda rule itself that seems to pervade this thread.

Glen
05-10-2010, 12:12 PM
I'm somewhat surprised by the general acceptance of the Miranda rule itself that seems to pervade this thread.

Why? The 4th Amendment has been effectively neutered over the years, imo.

newsbreaker
05-10-2010, 12:13 PM
I'm somewhat surprised by the general acceptance of the Miranda rule itself that seems to pervade this thread.

Why? The 4th Amendment has been effectively neutered over the years, imo.

+1.

And what's more, people generally have just accepted it, mostly in the name of "safety."

Gushawk
05-10-2010, 12:35 PM
I'm somewhat surprised by the general acceptance of the Miranda rule itself that seems to pervade this thread.

Why?

Because it is an arguably extra-Constitutional prophylactic protection against coerced confessions, and it's highly unlikely that "the Framers" would have endorsed it.

Glen
05-10-2010, 01:15 PM
I'm somewhat surprised by the general acceptance of the Miranda rule itself that seems to pervade this thread.

Why?

Because it is an arguably extra-Constitutional prophylactic protection against coerced confessions, and it's highly unlikely that "the Framers" would have endorsed it.

I'm not convinced informing someone of his or her Constitutional right is an "extra-Constitutional protection.

As to the framers, I don't know.

newsbreaker
05-10-2010, 01:16 PM
Why?

Because it is an arguably extra-Constitutional prophylactic protection against coerced confessions, and it's highly unlikely that "the Framers" would have endorsed it.

I'm not convinced informing someone of his or her Constitutional right is an "extra-Constitutional protection.

As to the framers, I don't know.

There is a great deal to be said about the fact that the Miranda rights are the only ones we actively inform people about when the opportunity comes to exercise them.

MikeyJoe
05-10-2010, 01:20 PM
Because it is an arguably extra-Constitutional prophylactic protection against coerced confessions, and it's highly unlikely that "the Framers" would have endorsed it.

I'm not convinced informing someone of his or her Constitutional right is an "extra-Constitutional protection.

As to the framers, I don't know.

There is a great deal to be said about the fact that the Miranda rights are the only ones we actively inform people about when the opportunity comes to exercise them.
That's a great point. Carrying it forward, why don't we require cops to say the following to college kids when they're busting parties: "Can I come in? You have the right to say no, and if I see anything illegal inside after you let me in I can use it in court against you."

Gushawk
05-10-2010, 01:25 PM
Why?

Because it is an arguably extra-Constitutional prophylactic protection against coerced confessions, and it's highly unlikely that "the Framers" would have endorsed it.

I'm not convinced informing someone of his or her Constitutional right is an "extra-Constitutional protection.

As to the framers, I don't know.

Justices Harlan and White thought it was, and you'd be extremely hard-pressed to point to the Constitutional text supporting it.

I can assure that the notion of required Miranda warnings was nowhere in the Framers minds when they penned the 5th amendment...it is most assuredly a reviled "penumbra"/"emanation".

Gushawk
05-10-2010, 01:28 PM
Because it is an arguably extra-Constitutional prophylactic protection against coerced confessions, and it's highly unlikely that "the Framers" would have endorsed it.

I'm not convinced informing someone of his or her Constitutional right is an "extra-Constitutional protection.

As to the framers, I don't know.

There is a great deal to be said about the fact that the Miranda rights are the only ones we actively inform people about when the opportunity comes to exercise them.

The policy justification for Miranda wasn't a belief in widespread ignorance of 5th Amendment rights, but rather a belief that coercive interrogations were commonplace (and very difficult for a defendant to "prove") and that the rule would go a long ways toward stopping them.

Rolo Tomassi
05-10-2010, 01:48 PM
I'm not convinced informing someone of his or her Constitutional right is an "extra-Constitutional protection.

As to the framers, I don't know.

There is a great deal to be said about the fact that the Miranda rights are the only ones we actively inform people about when the opportunity comes to exercise them.

The policy justification for Miranda wasn't a belief in widespread ignorance of 5th Amendment rights, but rather a belief that coercive interrogations were commonplace (and very difficult for a defendant to "prove") and that the rule would go a long ways toward stopping them.

The Miranda Warnings are patterned after warnings the FBI had been giving to arrested subjects for many years before anyone ever heard of Miranda.

Gushawk
05-10-2010, 01:56 PM
The FBI was neither the Court's primary concern nor target.

newsbreaker
05-10-2010, 02:06 PM
Sorry newsy...I hit edit instead of quote.

Rolo Tomassi
05-10-2010, 04:27 PM
The problem is that we are "at war" with a tactic the use of which isn't limited to Muslims.

Name those other than Muslims who have used that tactic against the U.S. within the last 10 years.

Limiting it to the past 10 years is awfully convenient, unless you believe the treat of home grown terrorism has been nearly eliminated, but here you go:

Joe Stack
Robert Goldstein
The Army of God...James Kopp, Scott Roeder

I wasn't aware that any of those you listed were working with foreign terrorist organizations. I guess if you want to include any nutcase who goes on a killing spree, your list could've been much longer.

Glen
05-10-2010, 04:32 PM
Sorry newsy...I hit edit instead of quote.

Soybean's allegations suddenly become credible.

TH1974
05-10-2010, 04:56 PM
Sorry newsy...I hit edit instead of quote.

Soybean's allegations suddenly become credible.

LOL

crazed_hoosier1
05-10-2010, 05:06 PM
I can assure that the notion of required Miranda warnings was nowhere in the Framers minds when they penned the 5th amendment...it is most assuredly a reviled "penumbra"/"emanation".

Perhaps. But it's still a legal reality whether it's in accordance with the original meaning of the 5th amendment or not.

I didn't really see this thread as a debate over the merits of Miranda itself -- but, rather, the standards by which we apply it. It's two very different conversations, with two underlying concepts at issue.

newsbreaker
05-10-2010, 08:36 PM
Sorry newsy...I hit edit instead of quote.

(insert monster outrage pic here)


I don't remember what I said here. Probably something about how we should all listen to gus on this subject. Sadly, that is now lost for all-time.