POS Hondas being recalled

[PhilHartman]

Anyone who bought these Japanese Yugos (with leather seats in the case of the Lexus) in the last few years will be affected.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...432697208.html

The Toyota quality myth comes from the same place that makes Bud Light the #1 selling beer in America... marketing depts.

[DoeyHawk]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

Anyone who bought these Japanese Yugos (with leather seats in the case of the Lexus) in the last few years will be affected.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...432697208.html

The Toyota quality myth comes from the same place that makes Bud Light the #1 selling beer in America... marketing depts.

Probably best to buy 10-15 year old BMWs as they rarely breakdown and aren't too expensive to fix.

[PhilHartman]

Originally Posted by DoeyHawk

Probably best to buy 10-15 year old BMWs as they rarely breakdown and aren't too expensive to fix.

I see you driving a Kia Soul. 'member yur glowsticks!

[MickerHawk]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

Anyone who bought these Japanese Yugos (with leather seats in the case of the Lexus) in the last few years will be affected.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...432697208.html

The Toyota quality myth comes from the same place that makes Bud Light the #1 selling beer in America... marketing depts.

Phil apparently is not old enough to remember Audis getting recalled for exactly the same thing.

I much prefer driving a balanced RWD car to a Honda or Toyota, but Japanese sedans are very high quality machines. You don't buy a German car for "quality," you buy it because you like the engineering better.

[DoeyHawk]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

I see you driving a Kia Soul. 'member yur glowsticks!

:
No Kia, but I do have two Japanese cars. Both are great.

Phil, you're the guy who reads Car and Driver and see that BMW generally wins their "contests" against other vehicles. You need to read further as most of BMW's points come from the items you can't quantify, like "fun to drive", etc.

Exhibit A:

Infiniti G37>BMW 3 series. Read the review, everything you can quantify the G wins.

I'm not saying BMW isn't a good car, just saying your opinion of them could be a little off.

[Vepr]

No bigger waste of money on earth than a "luxury" car.

[PhilHartman]

Originally Posted by DoeyHawk

:
No Kia, but I do have two Japanese cars. Both are great.

Phil, you're the guy who reads Car and Driver and see that BMW generally wins their "contests" against other vehicles. You need to read further as most of BMW's points come from the items you can't quantify, like "fun to drive", etc.

Exhibit A:

Infiniti G37>BMW 3 series. Read the review, everything you can quantify the G wins.

I'm not saying BMW isn't a good car, just saying your opinion of them could be a little off.

What does this have to do with Toyota PsOS or your Kia?

[Jimmie Dimmick]

Buy a Honda, you barely have to change the oil for 250,000 miles.

[DoeyHawk]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

What does this have to do with Toyota PsOS or your Kia?

It appeard you were lumping all Japanese cars into your "Yugo" category. Your title references Honda and then you go on to mention Toyota in your post.

My basic argument is simply that there are Japanese cars that are better than BMWs. Maybe you agree. You just don't like Toyota and Honda?

[PhilHartman]

Originally Posted by Vepr

No bigger waste of money on earth than a "luxury" car.

The taxpayers who funded the Iraq war and homeowners in So. Cali, Vegas, Florida and Phoenix disagree with you.

[PhilHartman]

Originally Posted by DoeyHawk

It appeard you were lumping all Japanese cars into your "Yugo" category. Your title references Honda and then you go on to mention Toyota in your post.

My basic argument is simply that there are Japanese cars that are better than BMWs. Maybe you agree. You just don't like Toyota and Honda?

Quality wise, the Japanese are far behind their American counterparts.

[MickerHawk]

Originally Posted by Jimmie Dimmick

Buy a Honda, you barely have to change the oil for 250,000 miles.

In defense of BMWs, they aren't purchased because of their reliability. It's because of their drivining dynamics, which with few exceptions are completely unmatched in a sedan.

Hondas are not purchased because of their driving dynamics, and for Toyotas you multiply that by 10. They're reliable, efficient appliances that are engineered to coddle not inspire.

Completely different missions.

Denigrating a BMW is equally as dumb as denigrating a Honda. Different car companies, completely different purposes, like apples to Blackberries.

[Jimmie Dimmick]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

Quality wise, the Japanese are far behind their American counterparts.

[PhilHartman]

Originally Posted by MickerHawk

In defense of BMWs, they aren't purchased because of their reliability. It's because of their drivining dynamics, which with few exceptions are completely unmatched in a sedan.

Honda's are not purchased because of their driving dynamics, and for Toyota's you multiply that by 10. They're reliable, efficient appliances that are engineered to coddle not inspire.

Completely different missions.

Denigrating a BMW is equally as dumb as denigrating a Honda. Different car companies, completely different purposes, like apples to Blackberries.

While I won't defend Toyota's style, quality or driving characteristics(Japanese Buicks), I will say that Honda, despite it's poor quality and shoddy workmanship, does make some very good drivers vehicles.

[DoeyHawk]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

Quality wise, the Japanese are far behind their American counterparts.

"Far behind?" I guess if you want to compare a Kia to a Ford, mabye. My recent experience (5 years ago) with GM has not been good.

[DoeyHawk]

Originally Posted by Jimmie Dimmick

My bad.

I thought for once that Phil wanted to have an adult discussion. I was wrong.

[MikeyJoe]

Kias are Korean.

[crazed_hoosier1]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

The Toyota quality myth comes from the same place that makes Bud Light the #1 selling beer in America... marketing depts.

Uh, you do realize that there are such things as independent rating agencies for this sort of thing, don't you? Not only for safety (which is generally done by the auto insurance industry), but also for quality.

JD Power is the biggie in that space. But you can even pick up the annual Consumer Reports Car issue to get a general idea of comparable quality records not only for every make, but for most of their models -- complete with historical data.

I'm not carrying Toyota's water here, necessarily. But I would say that their reputation comes from more than just marketing.

[Jimmie Dimmick]

Originally Posted by DoeyHawk

My bad.

I thought for once that Phil wanted to have an adult discussion. I was wrong.

yah, I could defend Honda's reliability, having owned 4 now ('05 Accord currently) and my family having owned 9 combined, but I just don't care to argue with a troll.

[crazed_hoosier1]

I'm sitting here wondering how it is that the marketing departments at American car companies have been so much less effective than their Japanese counterparts at creating the illusion of quality.

Forget design, engineering, and manufacturing. We need to tell Obama to go pilfer Honda and Toyota's marketing departments so that he can turn GM and Chrysler around!

Of course, we'll have to get permission from the Pay Czar to offer more than his standard ceiling of $40K per year for those positions if we're to have any hope of successfully wooing these branding magicians. But maybe we can catch him feeling generous.

[DoeyHawk]

Originally Posted by crazed_hoosier1

I'm sitting here wondering how it is that the marketing departments at American car companies have been so much less effective than their Japanese counterparts at creating the illusion of quality.

Forget design, engineering, and manufacturing. We need to tell Obama to go pilfer Honda and Toyota's marketing departments so that he can turn GM and Chrysler around!

Of course, we'll have to get permission from the Pay Czar to offer more than his standard ceiling of $40K per year for those positions if we're to have any hope of successfully wooing these branding magicians. But maybe we can catch him feeling generous.

Sounds like a great plan to me. Lets do it!

[MickerHawk]

Originally Posted by crazed_hoosier1

I'm sitting here wondering how it is that the marketing departments at American car companies have been so much less effective than their Japanese counterparts at creating the illusion of quality.

Forget design, engineering, and manufacturing. We need to tell Obama to go pilfer Honda and Toyota's marketing departments so that he can turn GM and Chrysler around!

Ironically, this is what the domestics have been doing for a good long time. Trying to rebadge and reimage the same old FWD crap they just can't build as well as the Japanese.

I was very pleasantly surprised when Chrysler built the 300, and it's still a very good car. It's happy being big, it's happy being RWD (and AWD) and it's happy with its own style. It is one of the longest running designs without needing a redesign in the last 50 years...7 years is a long time for the same model.

The domestics should make all mid-to-full size cars rear or all-wheel drive, and they should focus on the inline-6 and inline-4 as the engines of the future. The V-types in sizes smaller than a 4 liter simply require too much precision for our manufacturers to muster.

In other words, the domestic makes should copy the Europeans in design and theme. The Koreans are better at doing the Japanese designs than the Yanks will ever be.

[PhilHartman]

Originally Posted by crazed_hoosier1

I'm sitting here wondering how it is that the marketing departments at American car companies have been so much less effective than their Japanese counterparts at creating the illusion of quality.

It's been by far their biggest failure. A lot of the blame goes to the unions who are so expensive that less money is left over for marketing their quality to fight the Japanese myths.

[DoeyHawk]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

It's been by far their biggest failure. A lot of the blame goes to the unions who are so expensive that less money is left over for marketing their quality to fight the Japanese myths.

Phil,

What are you rolling in these days?

[Jimmie Dimmick]

Originally Posted by DoeyHawk

Phil,

What are you rolling in these days?

I'm guessing he's rolling in bullshit

[PhilHartman]

Marketing works well on you guys.

[MickerHawk]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

It's been by far their biggest failure. A lot of the blame goes to the unions who are so expensive that less money is left over for marketing their quality to fight the Japanese myths.

A FWD sedan from a domestic that placed within the top three of any comparison test or any "bests" list, say, in the last 20 years. Know of one?

I believe the only one you'll find is the Ford Focus, and it is a decent car. The problem is that it isn't a Ford of USA product, it's a Ford of Europe car. The same is true of the Ford Contour which is actually a Ford of Europe Mondeo, and it's the same story.

[Jimmie Dimmick]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

Marketing works well on you guys.

don't need marketing when I have 30 years of personal use to draw from

[LakeBull]

All the makers produce some good cars and some lemons. You are a chump if you just buy a car based on the brand. That kind of buying is right up there with showing up at a dealer without having pricing and facts in hand.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Originally Posted by MickerHawk

A FWD sedan from a domestic that placed within the top three of any comparison test or any "bests" list, say, in the last 20 years. Know of one?

I believe the only one you'll find is the Ford Focus, and it is a decent car.

I believe the Fusion also rated well for a couple years.

[Mr. Hawk]

The Ford Fusion is Car & Driver's car of the year this year.

[Santa Anna's Leg]

Originally Posted by Mr. Hawk

The Ford Fusion is Car & Driver's car of the year this year.

I hadn't seen that. Ford has really been a solid company for the last 4-5 years.

Cadillac also seems to be getting its stuff together recently, especially with the introduction of its wagons.

[LakeBull]

Originally Posted by Santa Anna's Leg

I hadn't seen that. Ford has really been a solid company for the last 4-5 years.

Cadillac also seems to be getting its stuff together recently, especially with the introduction of its wagons.

My Fords have held up as well as the Hondas I've had and since I tend to drive them until the wheels fall off that is a solid endorsement.

[chafedHawk]

Originally Posted by DoeyHawk

Phil, you're the guy who reads Car and Driver and see that BMW generally wins their "contests" against other vehicles. You need to read further as most of BMW's points come from the items you can't quantify, like "fun to drive", etc.

Exhibit A:

Infiniti G37>BMW 3 series. Read the review, everything you can quantify the G wins.

I'm not saying BMW isn't a good car, just saying your opinion of them could be a little off.

Nope.

On paper, the G37 wins. The 3 series is still a *slightly* better car.

Don't read the reviews, go drive them and see for yourself.

[DoeyHawk]

Originally Posted by chafedHawk

Nope.

On paper, the G37 wins. The 3 series is still a *slightly* better car.

Don't read the reviews, go drive them and see for yourself.

The point I was trying to convey to Phil is that there are some great Japanese cars out there. Stereotypical "BMW guy" thinks nothing can compete with the almighty Bavarians.

Changing directions a bit to address the G vs. 3 issue. The automotive publication I read earlier this year that did the G vs. 3 comparison had the 3 series as #1, barely. What put the 3 series on top were things like "feel" and "fun to drive".

I've driven both cars, actually owned a G, and the difference in power, plus the AWD put the G over the top. With that said, the Nissan/Datsun legacy doesn't taint my viewpoint of the G like it does for many others.

Don't get me wrong, I think BMW makes some fantastic cars. I have family members who own M6, 740, M5 S3 Dinan, etc. Love to drive the cars, could never justify the upfront expense and ultimate upkeep/repair expenses.

[Jimmie Dimmick]

I went looking for old Hondas based on this thread and there's quite the subculture of owners of 1970's Civics that are 'tuned up'.

[chafedHawk]

Originally Posted by DoeyHawk

The point I was trying to convey to Phil is that there are some great Japanese cars out there. Stereotypical "BMW guy" thinks nothing can compete with the almighty Bavarians.

Changing directions a bit to address the G vs. 3 issue. The automotive publication I read earlier this year that did the G vs. 3 comparison had the 3 series as #1, barely. What put the 3 series on top were things like "feel" and "fun to drive".

I've driven both cars, actually owned a G, and the difference in power, plus the AWD put the G over the top. With that said, the Nissan/Datsun legacy doesn't taint my viewpoint of the G like it does for many others.

Don't get me wrong, I think BMW makes some fantastic cars. I have family members who own M6, 740, M5 S3 Dinan, etc. Love to drive the cars, could never justify the upfront expense and ultimate upkeep/repair expenses.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I agree with pretty much all of this myself. I actually liked the G37x as much as the 328i (AWD) but the 3 does have the intangibles. The Nissan bloodlines don't bother me in the slightest, either, having owned Datsuns and a couple Nissans in the past. I do agree that the Japs build some fantastic cars to drive for reasons other than reliability.

Personally, I can't see keeping a bimmer around past the warranty for the reasons you state. It seems that BMW has addressed some of the reliability concerns over the last couple years. Time will tell, I guess.

[MickerHawk]

Originally Posted by Santa Anna's Leg

I hadn't seen that. Ford has really been a solid company for the last 4-5 years.

Cadillac also seems to be getting its stuff together recently, especially with the introduction of its wagons.

I hadn't seen that either. The latest comparison test in C&D with an Accord, a new-for-2010 Fusion, and a Mazda 6 had the Fusion in last, but apparently it's a much improved machine. From the MotorTrend piece awarding the COTY, much of the award was due to the strength of the Fusion Hybrid, and not so much the gas version.

Also, the CTS have been well reviewed for many years, but it's not a RWD car.

[Klink]

Seems the Toyota problem is actually the throttle-by-wire system and not the floor mat like they are claiming for the recall.

[Klink]

Originally Posted by Klink

Seems the Toyota problem is actually the throttle-by-wire system and not the floor mat like they are claiming for the recall.

Toyota Avalon displays unintended acceleration without floor mat
01/15/2010, 3:26 PM
By Mark Kleis

In a rather bizarre instance, a driver reportedly began to experience unintended acceleration from his Toyota Avalon and was able to drive the car to a nearby dealer with the vehicle still displaying wide open throttle, despite having the floormat removed. Dealer techs witnessed the problem and have reportedly offered to repair the vehicle free of charge.

According to a report from The Safety Record, on December 29, 2009, the driver of a 2007 Toyota Avalon experienced a bizarre case of sudden and unintended acceleration while driving on the highway, just miles from a local Toyota dealer. The driver managed to switch the vehicle between Neutral and Drive multiple times, while en route to the dealer in order to show the dealer the problem as it was still occurring.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-a...floor-mat.html

[PhilHartman]

Toyotas, for people who don't care about their life, the lives of others or how shitty their car is.

Are people actually still buying Toyotas? They are the worst cars on the road in almost every way.

[Thagoods]

I've owned a Chevy Tahoe and a Ford Expedition. I bought the Tahoe new and the other one was 1 1/2 years old. Both were huge pieces of shit after the first 2 years.

I've bought nothing but foreign cars since, and the only extra costs I've incurred are from routine maintenance i.e. - oil changes, tires, brakes, etc.

[Corporate Raider]

Originally Posted by Thagoods

I've owned a Chevy Tahoe and a Ford Expedition. I bought the Tahoe new and the other one was 1 1/2 years old. Both were huge pieces of shit after the first 2 years.

I've bought nothing but foreign cars since, and the only extra costs I've incurred are from routine maintenance i.e. - oil changes, tires, brakes, etc.

I was a die hard GM guy for 4 decades. I now own/drive primarily Toyota products and I have to admit that these 'Jap crap' vehicles are the best damn vehicles I have ever driven/owned. Needless to say, I have eaten a helluva lot of crow with my buddies. (believe it or not, I was pretty outspoken about Jap crap for years. D'oh!) I do point out that Toyota only got good after it became made here in the US of A. America, love it or leave it.

[Thagoods]

The 4Runner is a very nice vehicle. I almost bought one last time around.

[xr4ticlone]

Well owning 2 Toyotas...my brother owns 2 Toyotas...my inlaws own 2 Toyotas. My folks own one. My SIL owns one. My wife's uncle owns one.

So out of 9 they have all be exceptional vehicles. I guess we're just lucky. Oh sure the other 6-8 Toyotas we've owned prior to these were all great too. Of course only all of them had 100K plus miles with many going 200K plus.

I guess until you pay $1500 for front break pads you really haven't experienced what owning a REAL car is about...right Phil? But that's no biggie to you Mr. Money. (who doesn't have $9500 to buy a car...lol).

[PhilHartman]

Originally Posted by Corporate Raider

I was a die hard GM guy for 4 decades. I now own/drive primarily Toyota products and I have to admit that these 'Jap crap' vehicles are the best damn vehicles I have ever driven/owned. Needless to say, I have eaten a helluva lot of crow with my buddies. (believe it or not, I was pretty outspoken about Jap crap for years. D'oh!) I do point out that Toyota only got good after it became made here in the US of A. America, love it or leave it.

You're over-compensating in praise because you're a racist. Most Toyota owners do it.

[Corporate Raider]

Originally Posted by PhilHartman

You're over-compensating in praise because you're a racist. Most Toyota owners do it.

I fail to see how my hatred of anyone different from me is relevent?