**Ohio St v. Iowa - Saturday 1/28 - 7:00 PM - ESPN2**

AZmessDAWG

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LOL. Okay.

Based on PER for the whole season:
Jok
Kreiner
Pemsl
Baer
Wagner
Cook
Ellingson
Dailey
Uhl
bohannon
Moss

WS/40:

Jok
Baer
Kriener
Ellingson
Pemsl
Wagner
Dailey
Cook
bohannon
Uhl
Moss

Boxscore P/M:

Baer
Jok
Wagner
Pemsl
Ellingson
Kriener
Dailey
Uhl
bohannon
Cook
Williams
Moss


There is absolutely no fucking way you can look at this objectively and think that Moss is the 2nd best player. You would actually have to be mentally retarded to think that. Jok and Baer have been the 2 best players.
Eye test, Castic. Eye test.
Remember those times he got to the rim in transition???
I think so. Yeah.
 

Revolver

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@castichawk24 I agree with a lot of your basketball takes, but your views on Isaiah Moss are off base in my opinion. For some reason he has a very short leash, but he is definitely one of the best two way players on the team. It was too bad he got those two quick fouls yesterday. If Jok is out for a while longer then he'll be interesting to watch over the next few games.
LOL. Okay.

Based on PER for the whole season:
Jok
Kreiner
Pemsl
Baer
Wagner
Cook
Ellingson
Dailey
Uhl
bohannon
Moss

WS/40:

Jok
Baer
Kriener
Ellingson
Pemsl
Wagner
Dailey
Cook
bohannon
Uhl
Moss

Boxscore P/M:

Baer
Jok
Wagner
Pemsl
Ellingson
Kriener
Dailey
Uhl
bohannon
Cook
Williams
Moss


There is absolutely no fucking way you can look at this objectively and think that Moss is the 2nd best player. You would actually have to be mentally retarded to think that. Jok and Baer have been the 2 best players.
Eye test, Castic. Eye test.
Moss has been getting fucked on minutes all season long. He has flashes of brilliance and then we don't see him for a while. Maybe this leads him to disappear for a while even while he is on the court in a lot of games. But he has great active hands on D, and he finishes strongly nearly every time he goes to the rack.

Moss is my favorite of those freshman and I look forward to him getting more consistent PT.

And Baer and Jok are absolutely two I would have put in front of him, and haven't seen enough of Kriener but he has been great offensively and defensively lately. And those stats aren't the end all be all, obviously. I mean there is no way you can watch the games and tell me that Christian Williams has had a better overall season than Isaiah Moss. And mainly that was my issue was that you seem to link those two together in terms of importance.

This injury to Jok is his time to go out and earn some consistent minutes and production and I hope he takes it.
 
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@castichawk24 I agree with a lot of your basketball takes, but your views on Isaiah Moss are off base in my opinion. For some reason he has a very short leash, but he is definitely one of the best two way players on the team.
He needs to consistently show he can be a threat in the half court offense before he earns that label. He's great in transition but other than that he's been invisible offensively most of the time.
 

castichawk24

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LOL. Okay.

Based on PER for the whole season:
Jok
Kreiner
Pemsl
Baer
Wagner
Cook
Ellingson
Dailey
Uhl
bohannon
Moss

WS/40:

Jok
Baer
Kriener
Ellingson
Pemsl
Wagner
Dailey
Cook
bohannon
Uhl
Moss

Boxscore P/M:

Baer
Jok
Wagner
Pemsl
Ellingson
Kriener
Dailey
Uhl
bohannon
Cook
Williams
Moss


There is absolutely no fucking way you can look at this objectively and think that Moss is the 2nd best player. You would actually have to be mentally retarded to think that. Jok and Baer have been the 2 best players.
Eye test, Castic. Eye test.
Moss has been getting fucked on minutes all season long.
Moss has the 5th most minutes on the team.
 

Revolver

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@castichawk24 I agree with a lot of your basketball takes, but your views on Isaiah Moss are off base in my opinion. For some reason he has a very short leash, but he is definitely one of the best two way players on the team.
He needs to consistently show he can be a threat in the half court offense before he earns that label. He's great in transition but other than that he's been invisible offensively most of the time.
I agree with you 100% on that.

I just think after Baer and Jok it is pretty up in the air. He definitely has his moments where he plays like a dipshit freshman. I've noticed he does move a lot without the ball in comparison to his teammates not named Jok/Baer/Brady.

But yeah, most of his buckets have come from transition scoring. Hopefully he plays smart in the next few games.
 

AZmessDAWG

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Moss is fine. The transition stuff is the stuff you can't teach. He's got that. He'll learn to play in the half court.
 

Revolver

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Eye test, Castic. Eye test.
Moss has been getting fucked on minutes all season long.
Moss has the 5th most minutes on the team.
That isn't really surprising.

I also think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that Moss has been incredible. Just that he is one of the better overall players on this team. This team isn't very good. I'm not saying the guy would be All Big Ten if he got more PT.

I just don't see as much of a reason to be down on Moss as Williams.
 

castichawk24

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LOL. Okay.

Based on PER for the whole season:
Jok
Kreiner
Pemsl
Baer
Wagner
Cook
Ellingson
Dailey
Uhl
bohannon
Moss

WS/40:

Jok
Baer
Kriener
Ellingson
Pemsl
Wagner
Dailey
Cook
bohannon
Uhl
Moss

Boxscore P/M:

Baer
Jok
Wagner
Pemsl
Ellingson
Kriener
Dailey
Uhl
bohannon
Cook
Williams
Moss


There is absolutely no fucking way you can look at this objectively and think that Moss is the 2nd best player. You would actually have to be mentally retarded to think that. Jok and Baer have been the 2 best players.
Eye test, Castic. Eye test.
and tell me that Christian Williams has had a better overall season than Isaiah Moss. And mainly that was my issue was that you seem to link those two together in terms of importance.
What? I have never said that. The numbers don't say that. Willams has obviously been the worst player this season, from the proverbial eye test and by the numbers.

I have no idea where you got the idea I think they are of equal importance. Moss has the potential to be a 4-year starter, and hopefully a starter on a Douce championship team. Williams ceiling is backing up PG in limited minutes. I hope my pointing out that Moss hasn't been good this season doesn't make you think that I don't think Moss is gonna be good. He certainly has shown the flashes, which has me and everybody else excited.
 

castichawk24

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Moss has been getting fucked on minutes all season long.
Moss has the 5th most minutes on the team.
That isn't really surprising.

I also think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that Moss has been incredible. Just that he is one of the better overall players on this team. This team isn't very good. I'm not saying the guy would be All Big Ten if he got more PT.

I just don't see as much of a reason to be down on Moss as Williams.
I'm just saying he has played as one of the worst players on the team. I believe he has the talent to be a very very good player. I get where the misunderstanding can come from, but to pretend he actually has been a top player is staggeringly wrong.
 

MikeyJoe

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Moss has the 5th most minutes on the team.
That isn't really surprising.

I also think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that Moss has been incredible. Just that he is one of the better overall players on this team. This team isn't very good. I'm not saying the guy would be All Big Ten if he got more PT.

I just don't see as much of a reason to be down on Moss as Williams.
I'm just saying he has played as one of the worst players on the team. I believe he has the talent to be a very very good player. I get where the misunderstanding can come from, but to pretend he actually has been a top player is staggeringly wrong.
Eye test says Moss has a high ceiling. He has great instincts in transition.

In terms of total on court production this year he's been fairly bad.
 

Revolver

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Eye test, Castic. Eye test.
and tell me that Christian Williams has had a better overall season than Isaiah Moss. And mainly that was my issue was that you seem to link those two together in terms of importance.
What? I have never said that. The numbers don't say that. Willams has obviously been the worst player this season, from the proverbial eye test and by the numbers.

I have no idea where you got the idea I think they are of equal importance. Moss has the potential to be a 4-year starter, and hopefully a starter on a Douce championship team. Williams ceiling is backing up PG in limited minutes. I hope my pointing out that Moss hasn't been good this season doesn't make you think that I don't think Moss is gonna be good. He certainly has shown the flashes, which has me and everybody else excited.
Looks like I need to GFM.
 
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LOL. Of course not. But he also wouldn't understand that it isn't a slight to Jok given how high his usage rate is. That's why all the other advanced stats have Jok as the best player. Brady is fucking efficient, though. He's not good enough to get his shot up as much as Jok. I think Ortg in 1 game is a pretty good look at how great Brady and Kreiner were last night.
So, my question would be if Jok's high usage effects his ratings, wouldn't Moss' short leash / lack of usage, after mistakes, impact his? I.e. He doesn't get a chance to improve his stats or numbers. I feel Fran treats him similar to Uthoff in his sophomore season. He'd pull him in favor of McCabe the minute he screwed up. Moss sure as hell isn't going to get better riding the pine.
 

L. Wade Childress

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Revolver

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LOL. Of course not. But he also wouldn't understand that it isn't a slight to Jok given how high his usage rate is. That's why all the other advanced stats have Jok as the best player. Brady is fucking efficient, though. He's not good enough to get his shot up as much as Jok. I think Ortg in 1 game is a pretty good look at how great Brady and Kreiner were last night.
So, my question would be if Jok's high usage effects his ratings, wouldn't Moss' short leash / lack of usage, after mistakes, impact his? I.e. He doesn't get a chance to improve his stats or numbers. I feel Fran treats him similar to Uthoff in his sophomore season. He'd pull him in favor of McCabe the minute he screwed up. Moss sure as hell isn't going to get better riding the pine.
I know you are probably trolling, but I do think it is clear that Moss is more talented than most of the other guys on the team. I wish Fran would let him play through some of those early mistakes. (I realize he has the fifth most minutes now, but I know most people know what I'm talking about) Fran definitely sees something in him. He rides his ass harder than anyone on the team. I don't want him to turn into a talented, tentative pussy like Uthoff ended up being. Granted he doesn't seem like he will. He is pretty aggressive.

He is also a good passer. Sets up some nice looks for his teammates.

Rivals would say "He's one to watch".
 
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LOL. Of course not. But he also wouldn't understand that it isn't a slight to Jok given how high his usage rate is. That's why all the other advanced stats have Jok as the best player. Brady is fucking efficient, though. He's not good enough to get his shot up as much as Jok. I think Ortg in 1 game is a pretty good look at how great Brady and Kreiner were last night.
So, my question would be if Jok's high usage effects his ratings, wouldn't Moss' short leash / lack of usage, after mistakes, impact his? I.e. He doesn't get a chance to improve his stats or numbers. I feel Fran treats him similar to Uthoff in his sophomore season. He'd pull him in favor of McCabe the minute he screwed up. Moss sure as hell isn't going to get better riding the pine.
I know you are probably trolling, but I do think it is clear that Moss is more talented than most of the other guys on the team. I wish Fran would let him play through some of those early mistakes. (I realize he has the fifth most minutes now, but I know most people know what I'm talking about) Fran definitely sees something in him. He rides his ass harder than anyone on the team. I don't want him to turn into a talented, tentative pussy like Uthoff ended up being. Granted he doesn't seem like he will. He is pretty aggressive.

He is also a good passer. Sets up some nice looks for his teammates.

Rivals would say "He's one to watch".
Wasn't trolling. I would like to see Fran let him play through his mistakes as well. I think his upside is as big as anybody on the team.
 

L. Wade Childress

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If we let moss play through mistakes in a half court game we get down 15. He's lost on offense and somehow twice as bad on defense.

I love his upside but I don't blame fran for wanting to win games.
 
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If we let moss play through mistakes in a half court game we get down 15. He's lost on offense and somehow twice as bad on defense.

I love his upside but I don't blame fran for wanting to win games.
LOL. Isn't what they were doing during the three game losing skid, without him on the floor, or were you and I watching different games?
 

nolookpass

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If we let moss play through mistakes in a half court game we get down 15. He's lost on offense and somehow twice as bad on defense.

I love his upside but I don't blame fran for wanting to win games.
LOL. Isn't what they were doing during the three game losing skid, without him on the floor, or were you and I watching different games?
Lwades the same guy who claimed Jok wasn't hurt
 

AZmessDAWG

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If we let moss play through mistakes in a half court game we get down 15. He's lost on offense and somehow twice as bad on defense.

I love his upside but I don't blame fran for wanting to win games.
LOL. Isn't what they were doing during the three game losing skid, without him on the floor, or were you and I watching different games?
Lwades the same guy who claimed Jok wasn't hurt
Do we really want to play the "discredit someone if they're ever wrong" game?
 

nolookpass

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LOL. Of course not. But he also wouldn't understand that it isn't a slight to Jok given how high his usage rate is. That's why all the other advanced stats have Jok as the best player. Brady is fucking efficient, though. He's not good enough to get his shot up as much as Jok. I think Ortg in 1 game is a pretty good look at how great Brady and Kreiner were last night.
So, my question would be if Jok's high usage effects his ratings, wouldn't Moss' short leash / lack of usage, after mistakes, impact his? I.e. He doesn't get a chance to improve his stats or numbers. I feel Fran treats him similar to Uthoff in his sophomore season. He'd pull him in favor of McCabe the minute he screwed up. Moss sure as hell isn't going to get better riding the pine.
yep.
 

StinkyMcFadden

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The only thing that matters about Moss is that he scored 97 points in transition against Iowa State. For that, we will be forever in his debt.
 

L. Wade Childress

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I didn't claim Jok wasn't hurt. Fran did.
no you said in chat he wasn't hurt. Prolly had a few road rockets in you and don't recall.
No, I said I take anything regarding injuries to Jok with a grain of salt because he is overdramatic.

I understand that you are not the sharpest tool in the shed, but it really isnt that fucking difficult to properly quote someone. Although at this point it is fairly obvious that you don't care and are content being known as both borderline retarded AND disingenuous.
 

castichawk24

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Moss is fine. The transition stuff is the stuff you can't teach. He's got that. He'll learn to play in the half court.
LOL. Of course not. But he also wouldn't understand that it isn't a slight to Jok given how high his usage rate is. That's why all the other advanced stats have Jok as the best player. Brady is fucking efficient, though. He's not good enough to get his shot up as much as Jok. I think Ortg in 1 game is a pretty good look at how great Brady and Kreiner were last night.
So, my question would be if Jok's high usage effects his ratings, wouldn't Moss' short leash / lack of usage, after mistakes, impact his? I.e. He doesn't get a chance to improve his stats or numbers. I feel Fran treats him similar to Uthoff in his sophomore season. He'd pull him in favor of McCabe the minute he screwed up. Moss sure as hell isn't going to get better riding the pine.
Usage just means the % of times a possession ends on your shot or turnover, not necessarily minutes. It is easier to maintain a higher Ortg, or especially eFG% for a guy like Ellingson because he is only shooting when he is wide open. And there is definitely something to be said for a player like Jok that can get shots up when needed. That's why most of the other advanced stats have Jok as the best player... Moss is between Jok and Baer/Ellingson as far as usage, he just hasn't been good.

Moss only has 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, and 1 block for the entire fucking conference season. He also has 11 turnovers. Brady has 12 rebounds, 12 assists, 3 steals, and 2 turnovers while playing 40 less minutes and shooting a better percentage.... If I was to pick a player for my team, I would probably pick Moss, but Brady has performed better. I definitely understand the bewilderment.
 

nolookpass

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I didn't claim Jok wasn't hurt. Fran did.
no you said in chat he wasn't hurt. Prolly had a few road rockets in you and don't recall.
No, I said I take anything regarding injuries to Jok with a grain of salt because he is overdramatic.

I understand that you are not the sharpest tool in the shed, but it really isnt that fucking difficult to properly quote someone. Although at this point it is fairly obvious that you don't care and are content being known as both borderline retarded AND disingenuous.
so angry. I've heard that leads to premature balding.
 

nolookpass

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Moss is fine. The transition stuff is the stuff you can't teach. He's got that. He'll learn to play in the half court.
LOL. Of course not. But he also wouldn't understand that it isn't a slight to Jok given how high his usage rate is. That's why all the other advanced stats have Jok as the best player. Brady is fucking efficient, though. He's not good enough to get his shot up as much as Jok. I think Ortg in 1 game is a pretty good look at how great Brady and Kreiner were last night.
So, my question would be if Jok's high usage effects his ratings, wouldn't Moss' short leash / lack of usage, after mistakes, impact his? I.e. He doesn't get a chance to improve his stats or numbers. I feel Fran treats him similar to Uthoff in his sophomore season. He'd pull him in favor of McCabe the minute he screwed up. Moss sure as hell isn't going to get better riding the pine.
Usage just means the % of times a possession ends on your shot or turnover, not necessarily minutes. It is easier to maintain a higher Ortg, or especially eFG% for a guy like Ellingson because he is only shooting when he is wide open. And there is definitely something to be said for a player like Jok that can get shots up when needed. That's why most of the other advanced stats have Jok as the best player... Moss is between Jok and Baer/Ellingson as far as usage, he just hasn't been good.

Moss only has 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, and 1 block for the entire fucking conference season. He also has 11 turnovers. Brady has 12 rebounds, 12 assists, 3 steals, and 2 turnovers while playing 40 less minutes and shooting a better percentage.... If I was to pick a player for my team, I would probably pick Moss, but Brady has performed better. I definitely understand the bewilderment.
Moss is a much better defender
 

L. Wade Childress

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no you said in chat he wasn't hurt. Prolly had a few road rockets in you and don't recall.
No, I said I take anything regarding injuries to Jok with a grain of salt because he is overdramatic.

I understand that you are not the sharpest tool in the shed, but it really isnt that fucking difficult to properly quote someone. Although at this point it is fairly obvious that you don't care and are content being known as both borderline retarded AND disingenuous.
so angry. I've heard that leads to premature balding.
Not anger, just letting you know your place in case the previous hundred people telling you wasn't enough.

That said, I am 40 so any balding would be overdue.
 

castichawk24

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Moss

He is also a good passer. Sets up some nice looks for his teammates.

[/QUOTE]

Moss is 14 out of 14 on assist rate on the entire team. THE WORST! Below absolutely everybody that has stepped on the floor. THE FUCKING WORST! I mean Jesus Fucking Christ. Please go look at some fucking stats. http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/iowa/2017.html.

Some of that can be explained by bad luck on people missing shots, but JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.
 

castichawk24

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Moss is fine. The transition stuff is the stuff you can't teach. He's got that. He'll learn to play in the half court.
So, my question would be if Jok's high usage effects his ratings, wouldn't Moss' short leash / lack of usage, after mistakes, impact his? I.e. He doesn't get a chance to improve his stats or numbers. I feel Fran treats him similar to Uthoff in his sophomore season. He'd pull him in favor of McCabe the minute he screwed up. Moss sure as hell isn't going to get better riding the pine.
Usage just means the % of times a possession ends on your shot or turnover, not necessarily minutes. It is easier to maintain a higher Ortg, or especially eFG% for a guy like Ellingson because he is only shooting when he is wide open. And there is definitely something to be said for a player like Jok that can get shots up when needed. That's why most of the other advanced stats have Jok as the best player... Moss is between Jok and Baer/Ellingson as far as usage, he just hasn't been good.

Moss only has 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, and 1 block for the entire fucking conference season. He also has 11 turnovers. Brady has 12 rebounds, 12 assists, 3 steals, and 2 turnovers while playing 40 less minutes and shooting a better percentage.... If I was to pick a player for my team, I would probably pick Moss, but Brady has performed better. I definitely understand the bewilderment.
Moss is a much better defender
The metrics have Moss, Ellingson, and bohannon as the 3 worst defenders with Moss a bit above the other 2. You would fucking hate who the objective metrics have as the best defender.
 

nolookpass

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Usage just means the % of times a possession ends on your shot or turnover, not necessarily minutes. It is easier to maintain a higher Ortg, or especially eFG% for a guy like Ellingson because he is only shooting when he is wide open. And there is definitely something to be said for a player like Jok that can get shots up when needed. That's why most of the other advanced stats have Jok as the best player... Moss is between Jok and Baer/Ellingson as far as usage, he just hasn't been good.

Moss only has 12 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, and 1 block for the entire fucking conference season. He also has 11 turnovers. Brady has 12 rebounds, 12 assists, 3 steals, and 2 turnovers while playing 40 less minutes and shooting a better percentage.... If I was to pick a player for my team, I would probably pick Moss, but Brady has performed better. I definitely understand the bewilderment.
Moss is a much better defender
The metrics have Moss, Ellingson, and bohannon as the 3 worst defenders with Moss a bit above the other 2. You would fucking hate who the objective metrics have as the best defender.
some peeps have said all year that when Bo and Ellingson are in at the same time our perimeter defense is terrible.
 

castichawk24

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some peeps have said all year that when Bo and Ellingson are in at the same time our perimeter defense is terrible.

Those peeps would be correct.
Well yeah. They've never been wrong.

It's funny. You tell somebody that bohannon and Ellingson are rated as the 2 worst defenders on the team. The reply is that when bohannon and Ellingson are in at the same time the perimeter defense is terrible. If seemed like it was a rebuttal, but it was just a confirmation of what was originally stated. Strange.
 

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Moss

He is also a good passer. Sets up some nice looks for his teammates.
Moss is 14 out of 14 on assist rate on the entire team. THE WORST! Below absolutely everybody that has stepped on the floor. THE FUCKING WORST! I mean Jesus Fucking Christ. Please go look at some fucking stats. http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/iowa/2017.html.

Some of that can be explained by bad luck on people missing shots, but JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.[/QUOTE]
When he gets PT Jok and bohannon usually dominate the ball. Not every good pass leads to a shot.

Edit: You also botched the quote function there, dumbfuck. :)
 
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