**Gonzaga vs. Iowa Basketball - 12/19/20 - 11:00am - CBS**

MikeyJoe

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Doug is exactly right. Fucking wal mart iowa sports fan that DEMANDS EXCELLENCE
"I guess you're content with mediocrity" guy is the worst.

It's not the NBA. If your NBA team doesn't make the playoffs for 5 years, it's time to fire everyone. Every team (outside of some minor theoretical appeal to living in a certain metro area) has the same structure in place for winning. If your team is shit it means your talent evaluation or coaching is shit. There's like 300 teams in college and there's fewer of them than the total number of teams in the NBA that have a chance of winning the title every year.

We need a @Whamo expectations lecture in here, stat.
 

coff

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I’m actually not, but your argument was anecdotal. You look at a game that has about 75-80 possessions and pick one and say it proves your point.

I’d argue that Iowa held Gonzaga way below their shooting average on 2s and could point to a number of shots that were challenged in close. Iowa could be better on defense but your argument is purely reactionary and based on preconceived bias.
False premise. I didn't just pick one possession. I could go through a tape of the game and point out at least a couple dozen complete and utter defensive failures, and about the same number of instances where we absolutely failed to block out and gave up a rebound, and several instances where we just got outhustled to a 50-50 ball.

Look, I get it. HALO has to circle jerk together since I am making this point, but you are making yourself look dumb. Almost every knowledgeable BB color person this year has pointed out the lack of defense by the Hawks. It has been an issue for several years. It is part of Fran's philosophy, and his "we can outscore them" plan works more often than not. On the other hand, it has been shown repeatedly that it doesn't work against top tier teams.

Also, you have no data to support your claim about shooting %, you are just pulling it out of your ass. No objective person with any BB knowledge could watch that game and argue that we played any kind of decent fundamental defense.
 

L. Wade Childress

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False premise. I didn't just pick one possession. I could go through a tape of the game and point out at least a couple dozen complete and utter defensive failures, and about the same number of instances where we absolutely failed to block out and gave up a rebound, and several instances where we just got outhustled to a 50-50 ball.

Look, I get it. HALO has to circle jerk together since I am making this point, but you are making yourself look dumb. Almost every knowledgeable BB color person this year has pointed out the lack of defense by the Hawks. It has been an issue for several years. It is part of Fran's philosophy, and his "we can outscore them" plan works more often than not. On the other hand, it has been shown repeatedly that it doesn't work against top tier teams.

Also, you have no data to support your claim about shooting %, you are just pulling it out of your ass. No objective person with any BB knowledge could watch that game and argue that we played any kind of decent fundamental defense.
If you want iowa to get better at defense, fine. The offense is going to suffer accordingly. On a net basis, the metric that determines your likelihood of actually winning games, we are the number five team in the country. Given our talent level on the roster it is unlikely that we have any prayer of getting higher than that on a consistent basis.

Again, yes it would be great to have access to the talent that allows you to be top 10 in both offense and defense. But we don’t. So we rely on good coaching to put us in the best position to win.
 

douglasbader

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Also, you have no data to support your claim about shooting %, you are just pulling it out of your ass. No objective person with any BB knowledge could watch that game and argue that we played any kind of decent fundamental defense.
@MikeyJoe I'll let you take this one.
 

MikeyJoe

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If you want iowa to get better at defense, fine. The offense is going to suffer accordingly.
You say this a lot but it's not necessarily true. There's a few ways for the defense to get better:

1) Recruit and put different players on the floor who are better at defense. -> Would obviously have an impact on offense
2) Bust their ass with 100% effort on every defensive possession -> Would likely lead to a more gassed team that was worse on offense
3) Don't get lost on your assignments and give up so many open layups -> There's no reason to believe that the players being better coached on defense and assignments would hurt them on offense in any way.
 

MikeyJoe

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@MikeyJoe I'll let you take this one.
Well that's just math, and like really easy to get at. Gonzaga makes 62% of their 2s (they made 57% last year and 61% the year before), and they made 52% of their 2s in the Iowa game.

Not sure how anyone could say that there was no way to get data to support that claim.
 

MikeyJoe

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Hell, Gonzaga made 57% of their 2s against West Virginia and 77% (!) of their 2s against Kansas.

The 3P% against Iowa was unfortunate, but the real thing to criticize Iowa for is Gonzaga pulling down 40% of their OR opportunities.
 
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L. Wade Childress

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You say this a lot but it's not necessarily true. There's a few ways for the defense to get better:

1) Recruit and put different players on the floor who are better at defense. -> Would obviously have an impact on offense
2) Bust their ass with 100% effort on every defensive possession -> Would likely lead to a more gassed team that was worse on offense
3) Don't get lost on your assignments and give up so many open layups -> There's no reason to believe that the players being better coached on defense and assignments would hurt them on offense in any way.
I thought I pretty clearly referred to the capability of this particular team. The recruiting issue is separate and cannot make the current team better.

This is college. There are limited hours you can spend with your team. It’s pretty well documented that Fran spends most of the time in practice working on offense. If you move away from that strategy to focus on defense, I don’t think you can really say that the offense won’t suffer. Could it improve the net result? Maybe. But there’s not much room to go up and a long ways to go down.

the ideal option would be to have a group of players that can really get after it on defense if we are having a bad shooting night. I don’t think we have that, given the youth of our bench. It would definitely involve Toussaint playing over Jorbo though.
 

MikeyJoe

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You say this a lot but it's not necessarily true. There's a few ways for the defense to get better:

1) Recruit and put different players on the floor who are better at defense. -> Would obviously have an impact on offense
2) Bust their ass with 100% effort on every defensive possession -> Would likely lead to a more gassed team that was worse on offense
3) Don't get lost on your assignments and give up so many open layups -> There's no reason to believe that the players being better coached on defense and assignments would hurt them on offense in any way.
On second thought, I should have added #4 here, which is for Iowa to improve on defensive rebounding. I'll admit I've not really seen any particularly good analysis at why Iowa sucks at it. Are they boxing out poorly, do they have guys who just don't give enough effort...? Iowa plays with a relatively fast tempo but it's not like they're scoring a ton on fast breaks that would be theoretically impacted by having more guys focus on rebounding.
 

MikeyJoe

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This is college. There are limited hours you can spend with your team. It’s pretty well documented that Fran spends most of the time in practice working on offense. If you move away from that strategy to focus on defense, I don’t think you can really say that the offense won’t suffer. Could it improve the net result? Maybe. But there’s not much room to go up and a long ways to go down.
Ehh. The experience of dozens and dozens of others teams (like the one Iowa just lost to) would tell you this is a bullshit excuse.
 
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It's hard to imagine puffing out your chest after being right about Iowa being beaten by the best team in the country.
 
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Ehh. The experience of dozens and dozens of others teams (like the one Iowa just lost to) would tell you this is a bullshit excuse.
I do think there might be something to the group of guys Iowa has simply being limited compared to Gonzaga. Iowa should be a better rebounding team, but Bohannon isn't going to start locking down guys.
 
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I like that Walmart fan is saying “well the analyst said it would be an issue. You guys just don’t know anything about basketball” while not at all acknowledging that their entire premise is “pLaY bEtTeR dEfEnse” but they can’t point out what happened. I’d love to see them breakdown film.

Let’s not pretend that this is your kids 8U team you coached once upon a time. Fran is an elite offensive coach and yes, the defense can be hard to watch at times but let’s not kid ourselves and think that Iowa can’t hang with elite teams this year.
 

MikeyJoe

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i think Gonzaga is a more balanced team because they have better players and one of the best coaches in the country.
That’s why I pointed out that lots of other teams besides the one that just beat Iowa seem to have figured out this impossible time allocation mystery.
 

coff

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Well that's just math, and like really easy to get at. Gonzaga makes 62% of their 2s (they made 57% last year and 61% the year before), and they made 52% of their 2s in the Iowa game.

Not sure how anyone could say that there was no way to get data to support that claim.
Wow, a team makes 57% of 2's for a full year, and Mikey declares that they make 62% of their 2's. Interesting. Of course, wouldn't one like to see how that breaks down on a won/loss basis? And what the numbers are when they play the little sisters of the lame conference they are in as opposed to a Big Ten school? Also, they are only 3 games into this season.

The fact remains, that all one has to do is look at this game and see how many times Gonzaga was able to score virtually uncontested layups and shots due to no defense. To deny that is just dishonest.
 

L. Wade Childress

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I quickly scanned rivals and saw that Gonzaga signed a 5* and two top 75 kids in 2020 and signed three top 75 kids in 2019 before getting pissed and stopping my exercise.
 

L. Wade Childress

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Ehh. The experience of dozens and dozens of others teams (like the one Iowa just lost to) would tell you this is a bullshit excuse.
i mean...iowa beats a lot of teams that recruit much better than we do.
 

MikeyJoe

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Hell, Gonzaga made 57% of their 2s against West Virginia and 77% (!) of their 2s against Kansas.

The 3P% against Iowa was unfortunate, but the real thing to criticize Iowa for is Gonzaga pulling down 40% of their OR opportunities.
Wow, a team makes 57% of 2's for a full year, and Mikey declares that they make 62% of their 2's. Interesting. Of course, wouldn't one like to see how that breaks down on a won/loss basis? And what the numbers are when they play the little sisters of the lame conference they are in as opposed to a Big Ten school? Also, they are only 3 games into this season.

The fact remains, that all one has to do is look at this game and see how many times Gonzaga was able to score virtually uncontested layups and shots due to no defense. To deny that is just dishonest.
Maybe better next time to read to the end of the thread before showing your ass.
 

MikeyJoe

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Besides the fact that I wasn’t even making a qualitative argument that Iowa played well. I was mostly just pointing out the fact that you were objectively wrong when @Fletch said Iowa held Gonzaga below their average on twos and you said there was no way to back that up with data. LOL
 

coff

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Maybe better next time to read to the end of the thread before showing your ass.
Jesus Mikey, you are so desperate to fit in, at least somewhere, you will absolutely give up all sense. Are you really this isolated in your cubicle?

So you cite one game. Well, then that means that a bunch of other teams held them way below that, huh? Are you really suggesting that there is something to learn there, as opposed to simply seeing the results of poor defense in the game. Of course, the logical conclusion that you and dougie are headed for is that the higher ranked team will always win because they are better.

You never played competitive sports did you? Always in the AV club or something.
 

coff

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Besides the fact that I wasn’t even making a qualitative argument that Iowa played well. I was mostly just pointing out the fact that you were objectively wrong when @Fletch said Iowa held Gonzaga below their average on twos and you said there was no way to back that up with data. LOL
Well, let's see after a few more games. Especially against other ranked teams.
 

coff

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douglasbader

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Remember when I said Walmart Iowa Fan would rear their ugly hear as soon as they lost their first game? How it would be a bunch of rubes screaming about PLAY DEFENSE!! and freaking out because they are dumb and don't really watch Iowa basketball? How they would be shit talking the players and acting like Iowa is a mediocre team that doesn't belong in the Top 5?

Here we are.
 

L. Wade Childress

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Jesus Mikey, you are so desperate to fit in, at least somewhere, you will absolutely give up all sense. Are you really this isolated in your cubicle?

So you cite one game. Well, then that means that a bunch of other teams held them way below that, huh? Are you really suggesting that there is something to learn there, as opposed to simply seeing the results of poor defense in the game. Of course, the logical conclusion that you and dougie are headed for is that the higher ranked team will always win because they are better.

You never played competitive sports did you? Always in the AV club or something.
My man, just because you presented a claim that can be easily refuted with verifiable facts doesn’t mean you should start personal arguments with people that can beat your ass.
 

coff

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Remember when I said Walmart Iowa Fan would rear their ugly hear as soon as they lost their first game? How it would be a bunch of rubes screaming about PLAY DEFENSE!! and freaking out because they are dumb and don't really watch Iowa basketball? How they would be shit talking the players and acting like Iowa is a mediocre team that doesn't belong in the Top 5?

Here we are.
I said it before the game and was right. I guess now Joe W is a Walmart fan and player.
 

coff

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My man, just because you presented a claim that can be easily refuted with verifiable facts doesn’t mean you should start personal arguments with people that can beat your ass.
LOL. Yeah, no problem. Just keep playing no defense and see how many big games we win. Of course, now that Joe W and others are saying the same thing, I guess you need to convince them that they really were playing good defense, and that they don't know what they are talking about. The dumb on here is incredible.
 

L. Wade Childress

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Remember when I said Walmart Iowa Fan would rear their ugly hear as soon as they lost their first game? How it would be a bunch of rubes screaming about PLAY DEFENSE!! and freaking out because they are dumb and don't really watch Iowa basketball? How they would be shit talking the players and acting like Iowa is a mediocre team that doesn't belong in the Top 5?

Here we are.
Iowas defense!! is the new downtown basketball arena!!! which was the new Fran is an embarrassment!!!! Which was the new let the students sit courtside!!!!
 

L. Wade Childress

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LOL. Yeah, no problem. Just keep playing no defense and see how many big games we win. Of course, now that Joe W and others are saying the same thing, I guess you need to convince them that they really were playing good defense, and that they don't know what they are talking about. The dumb on here is incredible.
yeah I think you missed the point, which was a good move on your part.
 

MikeyJoe

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Besides the fact that I wasn’t even making a qualitative argument that Iowa played well. I was mostly just pointing out the fact that you were objectively wrong when @Fletch said Iowa held Gonzaga below their average on twos and you said there was no way to back that up with data. LOL
Apparently, Mikey needs to have a talk with Joe W:

Iowa basketball failed by shooting, rebounding, defense in 99-88 loss to No. 1 Gonzaga | The Gazette

According to Joe:

“We were terrible on the defensive glass,” said Iowa’s Joe Wieskamp.

“The defensive end is where we need improvement. They were in transition too much. They were having it at will, really.


He obviously hasn't looked at shooting percentages like Mikey.
 
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Nobody is arguing Iowa is a good defensive team. L.Wade is arguing that Iowa isn't capable of being better, but that's as close as you'll find on here.
 

coff

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Hey Mikey, maybe this is your way out of being a nobody in a cube. Maybe you can start writing for a BB publication, with your spot on statistical analysis of defense. I'm sure you will be a hit.
 

MikeyJoe

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L. Wade Childress

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Guys, that was embarrassing. we cannot let fringe top 25 teams like Gonzaga come in to Carver and shoot like that.
 

L. Wade Childress

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Hey Mikey, maybe this is your way out of being a nobody in a cube. Maybe you can start writing for a BB publication, with your spot on statistical analysis of defense. I'm sure you will be a hit.
wow, your stance on the opinion of sports writers really seems to have swung in the other direction.
 

Thomas Wolsey

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I said it before the game and was right. I guess now Joe W is a Walmart fan and player.
Joe W is saying the same thing Mikey (and everyone else) has been saying. And said before the game. Gonzaga was a 3 point favorite, and won by 10 when Iowa didn’t shoot well. Iowa needs to improve on defensive rebounding. That is all there is to take away from this game.

I guess you could say Jordan and CJ are going to struggle against lottery picks.
 

coff

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Nobody is arguing Iowa is a good defensive team. L.Wade is arguing that Iowa isn't capable of being better, but that's as close as you'll find on here.
Seriously, people are saying that we should be happy because we held their 2 point shot % down below Mikey's silly and meaningless average. In any event, I simply reject the notion that this team is as good as it can possible be on defense. While one cannot magically make players quicker, a team can work harder, especially for things like getting back to stop fast breaks, helping on drives, and boxing out for defensive rebounds. Effort on the defensive end is lacking. That will cost us ball games
 

coff

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Good thing my opinion is not shared by others:

Iowa Basketball Could Win It All in 2021, But Only If It Can Improve On Defense - Black Heart Gold Pants

Some more crazy talk:

Fran McCaffery’s Iowa teams have been very successful with their “All Offense, All the Time” approach, but the old adage that “defense wins championships” still holds true today.

the team with the lowest adjusted defensive efficiency rating to make the Final Four was the Dwayne Wade-led 2003 Marquette team that ranked 109th, which is still two slots higher than Iowa finished nationally the last time it made the NCAA Tournament. In other words, for Iowa to have a real chance to compete for a national title or a Final Four bid, it must improve its defense beyond what we’ve seen for much of the McCaffery era.

While the Hawkeyes have held their opponents to only 67 points per game, Iowa’s defense has still shown cracks that other elite teams should be able to exploit against them

As is the case almost every season, the Hawkeyes struggle to defend the perimeter. While Iowa has dramatically improved its three point defense from a few seasons ago when it allowed its opponents to make an embarrassing 37.6% of attempts from deep, it still has trouble preventing players from beating them off the dribble.

After ten seasons, Fran McCaffery finally has the type of offense that can carry Iowa to a national championship. However, if the Hawkeyes hope to live up to their immense potential this year, Fran will need to demand that his team play championship caliber defense as well.



How do these idiots have a job?
 
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douglasbader

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Ultimately the game on Saturday wasn't much different than the North Carolina game. The defense was about identical. Iowa got any shot they wanted. The difference is that Iowa hit their shots in one game and not the other. Welcome to basketball.
 

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Iowa’s defense is fine. It’s never going to be great, but it’s good enough for Iowa to beat any team in the country. Kenpom has most of Iowa’s defensive metrics ranked top 70 or so, with a few lower than that and a few more higher than that. The biggest problem is that the defensive rebounding is ranked 308th out of ~350 teams. Garza, Wieskamp, and Connor are all individually good rebounders. There’s really no excuse for it being so poor.
 

MikeyJoe

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This is like saying it's freezing, having someone else point out it's 45, and then staunchly trying to pretend everyone else was telling you that it's warm out.
 
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