The The Criminal question

Debit One

Chad
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
25,029
Reaction score
-8,860
There was quite a heated discussion in chat after yesterday's game about the job that The Criminal is doing. The chat format, and the fact that the game had just concluded, was not very conducive to having a rational discussion on the topic. I thought that maybe we could try it again today.

I'll start by saying that 1.5 years is too quick to judge any college head coach unless you're seeing an abundance of in game horrible coaching moves or off the field/court issues. Their recruits are sophomores at most, and they are working with a mix of players who may or may not fit well into their schemes as half of them were recruited by someone else.

Last season was going to be horrible no matter who was coaching that team. There was very little talent returning, and the recruiting class of Kelly, Cole and Peterson is absolutely nothing special. No way that team was going to have a winning Big 10 record.

Unfortunately, this season's team being the above squad, minus Gorney, Looby and Johnson, and Cole coming off of his injury, Iowa was going to suck once again (no matter who the coach is) unless there were a group of impact freshman arriving. The Criminal then made the decision to run off Freeman (yes, he ran him off), further reducing the talent level on this team. However, one could reasonably question whether it would have made any significant difference in this season's results.

IMO this season's team was destined to be no more than a 6 Big 10 wins team from the get go. I know that some had higher expectations, but I think those were never realistic. You had the following players coming back:

Tate (reasonable Big 10 big man)
Cole (coming off of significant injury)
Palmer (having proven nothing)
Kelly (coming off OK freshman season)
Angle (zero)
Peterson (questions whether or not he is a legit Big 10 PG)

That's it. As I said above, unless you're bringing in a group of impact freshmen that team isn't going to fare well in conference.

OK, now we come to the recruiting question. The Criminal's recruits:

Peterson (last minute signing right after Lick was hired - emergency PG)
Gatens (was going to Iowa no matter who was coaching)
Tucker (has shown that he can play, but questions obviously remain)
Fuller (he's going to be a solid player)
Brommer (nothing yet, but I'm not going to write off a big man during his freshman season)
Bawinkel (don't see it in him - waste of a scholarship)
Davis (emergency PG #2)

and four high schoolers who we have not yet seen (May, Cougill, Creekmur and Larson)

I understand the Peterson signing. He desperately needed a PG.

Gatens, Tucker, Fuller and even Brommer I understand and don't have a problem with. Bawinkel I don't get, and unfortunately Davis was yet another emergency signing due to the failure to land a PG recruit.

My problem with The Criminal's recruiting at this point is the continuing failures to be able to attract a quality PG to the program. I will say that were I a PG who wanted to run the floor, Iowa and The Criminal's system would not be attractive to me. Will this be a continuing issue? I guess that we will see.

What I see after 1.5 years is a plan in place, with it being too early to determine whether or not that plan is going to work. What I don't see is enough evidence as of yet to support the doom and gloomers with respect to The Criminal.
 

Bovert

Fat ISU Fan
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
12,855
Reaction score
-8,361
It's the Ferentz situation all over again. The whack jobs called for his head because his style was boring and he wasn't winning 10 games his 1st couple years. Of course they weren't quite as vocal when he was winning 2 Big 10 titles and leading us to 3 top 10 finishes.

There is no rational discussion to be had with morons who have given up on The Criminal already. It's a waste of time.
 

nolookpass

Feels the Bern
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
72,308
Reaction score
-66,673
Licks style is boring. That doesnt help when you arent winning.
 

Gushawk

Hires SullCrom
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
71,508
Reaction score
-32,971
I think there are valid concerns that Lick's tenure won't produce similar ultimate success. A basketball program can be turned around quicker than a football program, and I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect Lick to have the same year 3 success and signs of progress that Ferentz showed. We'll see.
 

Debit One

Chad
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
25,029
Reaction score
-8,860
I think there are valid concerns that Lick's tenure won't produce similar ultimate success.
I completely agree with the "ultimate success" comment. I frankly don't believe that Iowa is a program where you can reasonably expect to compete for Big 10 titles on a consistent basis. There is too little home grown talent.

The list of good D-1 basketball players produced from within Iowa is pretty slim. Let's put it to the test. How many legit major conference talents have been produced in Iowa in the last 10 graduating classes? That's 1999 - 2008 graduates.

The problem if we don't have sufficient home grown talent is that Iowa (and ISU) then have to attract kids from elsewhere, either taking sloppy seconds or somehow attracting a kid away from him home. I don't know that either of the in state schools have the sort of reputation to be able to do the latter consistently.

I'm betting that we cannot come up with twenty, with twenty being one per year for each of Iowa and ISU. (And note - we'd need 3 per school per year, or 60 in those 10 years, to populate those two squads from within)

1. Hinrich
2. Collison
3. Davis
4. Horner
5. Brunner
6. Haluska
7. Gatens
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
661
Reaction score
-316
I think there are valid concerns that Lick's tenure won't produce similar ultimate success. A basketball program can be turned around quicker than a football program, and I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect Lick to have the same year 3 success and signs of progress that Ferentz showed. We'll see.
I agree that a basketball program can be turned around quicker than a football program. So, why isn't reasonable for Lick to have the same success as KF by year 3?

My concern is that Lick is 2 recruits short of having this team in place for the next 2 years. That would be giving him 4 years. If those 2 recruits aren't all stars,i think he is in for a very tough time
 
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
9,669
Reaction score
-463
I think there are valid concerns that Lick's tenure won't produce similar ultimate success. A basketball program can be turned around quicker than a football program, and I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect Lick to have the same year 3 success and signs of progress that Ferentz showed. We'll see.
I agree that a basketball program can be turned around quicker than a football program. So, why isn't reasonable for Lick to have the same success as KF by year 3?

My concern is that Lick is 2 recruits short of having this team in place for the next 2 years. That would be giving him 4 years. If those 2 recruits aren't all stars,i think he is in for a very tough time
I know May is good, not sure about Cougill....but neither one of them is a star. I think it's o.k. to be concerned about recruiting at this juncture of The Criminal's tenure. He's recruiting Butler players....now sure people will say Butler is great, but they don't play in the same league, Big Ten is grueling (like most power conferences) and you need better players.

Way easier to turn around a basketball program than a football program.
 

douglasbader

Was RATT
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
94,155
Reaction score
-59,520
You guys are nuts, and worse yet you show that you don't know shit about basketball.

Lick is working with a group of guys who should be getting beat by 30 every single game, yet they are winning some games against decent teams and hanging tough with most of the others.

They are playing with ZERO size and one of the best players almost drank himself to death and then failed out. They lost the core of the team to injury weeks ago and have still hung tough. The only other big men they have is coming off a devastating acl injury and one was a garbage player left from Alford that wouldn't usually see a minute of playing time.

What in the world did you expect to this point? Alford left him with nothing, absolutely nothing but a bunch of scrubs.

We are running a team of Freshman and Soph's.

Anyone who doesn't realize that Lick is a freaking outstanding coach at this point doesn't know the first thing about Basketball. If you give him another 2 years, he is going to have one of the best teams in the Big Ten every single year.
 

Debit One

Chad
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
25,029
Reaction score
-8,860
Doug, I could have used you by my side in chat yesterday. That group was ready to run The Criminal out of town.

Yeah, I agree, that's crazy talk.
 

Gushawk

Hires SullCrom
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
71,508
Reaction score
-32,971
Anyone who doesn't realize that Lick is a freaking outstanding coach at this point doesn't know the first thing about Basketball.
This statement has no more tangible support at this point than an assertion that he's no good and needs to go. There just aren't many clear signs one way or other at this point concerning whether he does or doesn't have what it takes to turn Iowa into an upper echelon Big Ten program that is in the conference title mix on a somewhat regular basis. I'm willing to give him two to three more years to prove it, but am certainly not willing to proclaim him an outstanding coach for the Iowa program right now. Nor am I willing to call him a failure, or even a likely failure.
 

douglasbader

Was RATT
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
94,155
Reaction score
-59,520
Anyone who doesn't realize that Lick is a freaking outstanding coach at this point doesn't know the first thing about Basketball.
This statement has no more tangible support at this point than an assertion that he's no good and needs to go. There just aren't many clear signs one way or other at this point concerning whether he does or doesn't have what it takes to turn Iowa into an upper echelon Big Ten program that is in the conference title mix on a somewhat regular basis. I'm willing to give him two to three more years to prove it, but am certainly not willing to proclaim him an outstanding coach for the Iowa program right now. Nor am I willing to call him a failure, or even a likely failure.
He's been the freaking NATIONAL COACH OF THE YEAR. I would say that would make it far more tangible than saying "he's no good and needs to go".
 

Debit One

Chad
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
25,029
Reaction score
-8,860
Doug, I could have used you by my side in chat yesterday. That group was ready to run The Criminal out of town.

Yeah, I agree, that's crazy talk.
Who were those idiots?
Well, there was one guy claiming that we've now seen 4 of The Criminal's recruiting classes and that his recruiting sucks. Of course the first "class" was Peterson, the second the current freshmen, the third May/Cougill, and the fourth Creekmur/Larson. Never mind that Peterson hardly represents anything other than a recruit signed under duress, and that the third and fourth classes mentioned have not yet set foot on campus or are necessarily complete, and you can see what I was up against.

They tend to be the same crowd that believes not giving David Palmer more playing time early in the season is indicative of a The Criminal shortcoming.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
6,160
Reaction score
-15
Anyone who doesn't realize that Lick is a freaking outstanding coach at this point doesn't know the first thing about Basketball.
This statement has no more tangible support at this point than an assertion that he's no good and needs to go. There just aren't many clear signs one way or other at this point concerning whether he does or doesn't have what it takes to turn Iowa into an upper echelon Big Ten program that is in the conference title mix on a somewhat regular basis. I'm willing to give him two to three more years to prove it, but am certainly not willing to proclaim him an outstanding coach for the Iowa program right now. Nor am I willing to call him a failure, or even a likely failure.
He's been the freaking NATIONAL COACH OF THE YEAR. I would say that would make it far more tangible than saying "he's no good and needs to go".
I think he is a good coach, but he appears to be an awful recruiter, which unfortunately is a big part of the job.
 

Gushawk

Hires SullCrom
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
71,508
Reaction score
-32,971
Wasn't Peterson really an Alford recruit, with Lick merely making the decision to honor the offer?
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
6,160
Reaction score
-15
Wasn't Peterson really an Alford recruit, with Lick merely making the decision to honor the offer?
That was my understanding, but it turned into a huge side argument.

What is shocking to me is The Criminal's inability to convince a second point guard to join the team (not counting his son).
 

Gushawk

Hires SullCrom
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
71,508
Reaction score
-32,971
He's been the freaking NATIONAL COACH OF THE YEAR. I would say that would make it far more tangible than saying "he's no good and needs to go".
While admirable, I don't think his significant accomplishments at Butler (following Collier and Matta) conclusively establish that he'll be an outstanding coach in the Big Ten at Iowa. I actually like his system and think it's a good fit for a program like Iowa; I'm just not yet convinced he can attract the players he needs to win with it in a major conference.
 

Debit One

Chad
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
25,029
Reaction score
-8,860
Wasn't Peterson really an Alford recruit, with Lick merely making the decision to honor the offer?
That was my understanding, but it turned into a huge side argument.

What is shocking to me is The Criminal's inability to convince a second point guard to join the team (not counting his son).
I agree on the inability to get a PG on board being a huge problem. If he cannot find one to join next year as a freshman I'll be very disappointed.

His son should be left out of the discussion entirely. He's never going to play any meaningful minutes or have a scholarship. Everyone knows that. No harm in letting the kid sit on the bench, and they actually do need someone to play PG in practice.
 

hawkeyealum

Subscribes to Playboy for the articles
Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Messages
30,718
Reaction score
-18,812
My problem with Lick's recruiting is the lack of post players. I understand that is offense is basically guards who play multiple positions but when you are starting Gatens at what amounts to essentially the power forward spot, bad things are going to happen on the defensive side of things. They can hang around because of their outside shooting and the fact that I think most of them are a bit more athletic than some of our recent players.

After Tate leaves, we are left with Cole, Palmer and Brommer (who might be the worst free throw shooter in the history of Iowa basketball). Hopefully Cole gets healthier and returns to what we started to see his freshman year. Palmer we can probably expect some inconsistency and Brommer has not done much to this point.

I dont know much about cougill but I do know that we have twice as many guards as post players. I would like to see lick at at least one, if not two, more post players to this years class to offset the 5 guards/SF we brought in last year and Eric May.
 
Last edited:

scottsdalehawk

Buckled Up
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
12,345
Reaction score
-1,339
Gotta give him 4 years. If the program is in the same spot then as it is now then it might be time for a new coach.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
661
Reaction score
-316
Doug, I could have used you by my side in chat yesterday. That group was ready to run The Criminal out of town.

Yeah, I agree, that's crazy talk.
B.S. Nobody was saying to run him out of town. Just because he's been here for less than 2 years doesn't mean we can can't offer an opinion on his recruiting. The fact is,only one player that i know of that has signed or committed, has anything other than a mid-major offer.
 

PipeDaddy

Nanny State Leach Enabler
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
38,060
Reaction score
-6,618
I think there are valid concerns that Lick's tenure won't produce similar ultimate success. A basketball program can be turned around quicker than a football program, and I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect Lick to have the same year 3 success and signs of progress that Ferentz showed. We'll see.
I agree that a basketball program can be turned around quicker than a football program. So, why isn't reasonable for Lick to have the same success as KF by year 3?

My concern is that Lick is 2 recruits short of having this team in place for the next 2 years. That would be giving him 4 years. If those 2 recruits aren't all stars,i think he is in for a very tough time
KF came on board with little left in the cupboard, but Iowa Football still had the tradition and fan support that it still enjoys now.

Lick has no such luxury - the Iowa BB tradition left a long time ago, and fan support is at an all time low. Apathy runs rampant. It's hard to step into that sort of situation and produce right away.

And believe me - as someone that thought Alford overstayed his welcome by at least 2 years - I'm not saying Lick gets a free pass for the next 4 years. But I am saying that these sorts of discussions are very premature.
 

PipeDaddy

Nanny State Leach Enabler
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
38,060
Reaction score
-6,618
Doug, I could have used you by my side in chat yesterday. That group was ready to run The Criminal out of town.

Yeah, I agree, that's crazy talk.
I was getting roasted until you showed up, Debit. Then I had to leave for a SB party and didn't see the rest of it.

It's crazy talk. That's for sure.
 

PipeDaddy

Nanny State Leach Enabler
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
38,060
Reaction score
-6,618

PipeDaddy

Nanny State Leach Enabler
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
38,060
Reaction score
-6,618
I think a JC big guy is needed to plug the big guy gap we've got right now. Doesn't need to be polished - it's almost at the point where we just need some size.

And as for someone who talked about the worst FT shooter in Iowa history... Ed Horton anyone?
 
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
12,516
Reaction score
-4,608
I really like this Iowa team. They're not particularly talented, but they run their offense well. They get open looks at threes and when they drop Iowa can play with a lot of teams. Peterson and Kelly do a decent job of creating after a slow start to the season. Cole has been productive for a couple games and Palmer is playing alright. The Criminal has done a fantastic job with this team. He just needs to recruit better and help Gatens develop and trust a mid-range game.
 

hawkeyealum

Subscribes to Playboy for the articles
Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Messages
30,718
Reaction score
-18,812
ed horton was bad, but he has nothing on brommer.
 

L. Wade Childress

Is Texting Right Now
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
54,198
Reaction score
-18,132
I think there are valid concerns that Lick's tenure won't produce similar ultimate success. A basketball program can be turned around quicker than a football program, and I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect Lick to have the same year 3 success and signs of progress that Ferentz showed. We'll see.
you are spot on here. I am a fan of the Ferentz "model", but I dont think the basketball team enjoys the same type of loyal support that allows for such a hire.

however, i find it hard to fault barta's choice because iowa produces a large number of quality college players but few superstars. I truly believe that it is possible to win in the big ten using mainly midwestern talent supported by the occasional under-the-radar recruit like Fuller.
 

Gushawk

Hires SullCrom
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
71,508
Reaction score
-32,971
Barta's choice was a good one. I just hope it works out. Not all good choices do.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
12,788
Reaction score
-6,597
I think The Criminal seems like a great guy and a great coach but I worry about his style. It might just be the guys running the system at this point. But, the games can be hard to watch. Basketball (and all sports) are about entertainment. I want to enjoy watching the game, win or lose.
 

PipeDaddy

Nanny State Leach Enabler
Joined
Aug 23, 2007
Messages
38,060
Reaction score
-6,618
I guess I've never understood the complaints about the style. People complained about TD's style. They complained about SA's style. They complain about Lick's style.

For me, any style is fine if it includes winning.
 

Jim

Enjoys Birding
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
7,216
Reaction score
-966
I guess I've never understood the complaints about the style. People complained about TD's style. They complained about SA's style. They complain about Lick's style.

For me, any style is fine if it includes winning.
Agree.
 

Debit One

Chad
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
25,029
Reaction score
-8,860
I guess I've never understood the complaints about the style. People complained about TD's style. They complained about SA's style. They complain about Lick's style.

For me, any style is fine if it includes winning.
100% agreed.

Marquette used to play some very low scoring games under Al McGuire. Nobody complained, because they won.
 
Joined
Aug 27, 2007
Messages
12,788
Reaction score
-6,597
Seriously guys? You've enjoyed watching us struggle to score 50 points?
Remember that team from Wisconsin around 5-7 years ago? With Mike Kelly?
Those guys won all the time, had success in the tourney and won most of their games at a score of like 55-50. But it was still boring. If you are going to play slow paced, deliberate basketball, you'd better win if you want many people to watch.
 

Tugboat

Berntard
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
8,909
Reaction score
-8,220
You guys are nuts, and worse yet you show that you don't know shit about basketball.

Lick is working with a group of guys who should be getting beat by 30 every single game, yet they are winning some games against decent teams and hanging tough with most of the others.

They are playing with ZERO size and one of the best players almost drank himself to death and then failed out. They lost the core of the team to injury weeks ago and have still hung tough. The only other big men they have is coming off a devastating acl injury and one was a garbage player left from Alford that wouldn't usually see a minute of playing time.

What in the world did you expect to this point? Alford left him with nothing, absolutely nothing but a bunch of scrubs.

We are running a team of Freshman and Soph's.

Anyone who doesn't realize that Lick is a freaking outstanding coach at this point doesn't know the first thing about Basketball. If you give him another 2 years, he is going to have one of the best teams in the Big Ten every single year.
:roll:
 

douglasbader

Was RATT
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
94,155
Reaction score
-59,520
We have had this brought up numerous times and someone even has it as their sig.

RATT.
 

Glen

Administrator
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
18,597
Reaction score
-15,172
You guys are nuts, and worse yet you show that you don't know shit about basketball.

Lick is working with a group of guys who should be getting beat by 30 every single game, yet they are winning some games against decent teams and hanging tough with most of the others.

They are playing with ZERO size and one of the best players almost drank himself to death and then failed out. They lost the core of the team to injury weeks ago and have still hung tough. The only other big men they have is coming off a devastating acl injury and one was a garbage player left from Alford that wouldn't usually see a minute of playing time.

What in the world did you expect to this point? Alford left him with nothing, absolutely nothing but a bunch of scrubs.

We are running a team of Freshman and Soph's.

Anyone who doesn't realize that Lick is a freaking outstanding coach at this point doesn't know the first thing about Basketball. If you give him another 2 years, he is going to have one of the best teams in the Big Ten every single year.
:roll:
I absolutely love Doug. I read this and I wanted to rehire Lik. Don't ever change, Douglas.
 

Whatever

Loves Fayette
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
12,932
Reaction score
-3,271
I've thrown that in Doug's face a bunch of times in retaliation. I used to have that on my desk top during basketball season.
 

AZmess

Loved and Defended The Criminal Until the Bitter End
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
33,000
Reaction score
-18,892
That's normal
 

AZmess

Loved and Defended The Criminal Until the Bitter End
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
33,000
Reaction score
-18,892
You guys are nuts, and worse yet you show that you don't know shit about basketball.

Lick is working with a group of guys who should be getting beat by 30 every single game, yet they are winning some games against decent teams and hanging tough with most of the others.

They are playing with ZERO size and one of the best players almost drank himself to death and then failed out. They lost the core of the team to injury weeks ago and have still hung tough. The only other big men they have is coming off a devastating acl injury and one was a garbage player left from Alford that wouldn't usually see a minute of playing time.

What in the world did you expect to this point? Alford left him with nothing, absolutely nothing but a bunch of scrubs.

We are running a team of Freshman and Soph's.

Anyone who doesn't realize that Lick is a freaking outstanding coach at this point doesn't know the first thing about Basketball. If you give him another 2 years, he is going to have one of the best teams in the Big Ten every single year.
:roll:
 

thrawn

Might Need to GFH
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
4,676
Reaction score
3,805
I like that since he calls him Lick, The Criminal doesn't appear once in the post, making him look even more supportive.
 
Top