Dr. Tom vs Fran

[Bonner]

Instead of adding to the Iowa vs Wisconsin thread, let’s ask the question. Who would you want as basketballl coach?

 

[AZmessDAWG]

JFC

 

[KitKatApples]

JFC

I don’t think he ever coached at Iowa

 

[Geese]

Great poll

 

[Hawkstrat]

Tom Davis is an 80 year old man.

 

[Geese]

I bet Dr. Tom loves Casey's pizza

 

[Geese]

Tom Davis is an 80 year old man.

Doesn't look a day over 78 tho

 

[Hawk&Balls]

Iza is a homo

 

[Revolver]

JFC

I don’t think he ever coached at Iowa

Is that so?

 

[KitKatApples]

Great poll/geese

 

[BngHawk]

Great poll

 

[KitKatApples]

JFC

I don’t think he ever coached at Iowa

Is that so?

JHF*

 

[HiawathaHawk]

I think this is dumb but it just got started with someone comparing them in the other thread. Davis had Marble, Armstrong and Horton his first three years. Fran dug out from the Lick crater. The comparison was Davis in the 90's once Raveling's players were gone to Fran after the start.

Davis from 1990-1999 made 6 tournaments in 10 years with 5 R32's, 1 Sweet 16, 2 NIT's and a 90-86 Big Ten record.
Fran after his 2nd year from 2013-2019 will have made 4 tournaments in 7 years with 2 R32's (maybe one more) 2 NIT's and a 66-61 Big Ten record. If you only discount his first season it's 4 of 8 NCAA's with 3 NIT's and a 74-71 Big Ten record.

We'll see if he gets a Sweet 16 in the next 3 years but the point is they're pretty much the same guy with their own players.

 

[BBK]

I like em both.

 

[RecreationalGynecologist]

The Big 10 was also much tougher back in the mid-to-late 80s and the 90s.

 

[Bonner]

Fuck you guys!!

 

[HiawathaHawk]

The Big 10 was also much tougher back in the mid-to-late 80s and the 90s.

Late 80's and early 90's yes. Mid to late 90's it wasn't. Lot of programs that were in transition and not what they've been recently.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Not sure what the point of this poll was other than to remind us of how stupid Bowlsby was to force out Dr. Tom only to usher in the rapist protector and the criminal. Fuck.

 

[hawkeyealum]

Dr. Tom never had keno playing 19 mpg

 

[BillyBob]

Fran is an ok high major level coach, same level as Dr. Tom. Ppl probably romanticize the Dr. Tom era because of the sweet sixteen run his lame duck year.

 

[Berzerkenpas]

Dr. Tom's teams were better prepared, had better focus defensively, and had better cohesion. Their mediocre results were due to the predictable system (teams learned to throw over the press and quickly swing to the corner threes that DT's zone was so vulnerable to) and a few key personnel disasters (ed jenkins, james head, jeff walker, no senior kingsbury). He recruited better top-end talent than Fran, so he almost always had a guy who could be a difference-maker, but his lower end recruits were worse.

Six NCAA appearances from 91-99. Fran hasn't done that (yet?).

 

[KingJames]

In my opinion, there's one key difference between the two. Dr. Tom's teams always busted their ass. I can deal with being an average to above average team but Fran's teams show so much lack of effort, it drives me insane. At least with Tom, we knew the players were going to play hard night in and night out.

 

[sergeanthulka]

Dr. Tom never had keno playing 19 mpg

Should have passed on the all wheel drive...

 

[Mo T]

Fran is an ok high major level coach, same level as Dr. Tom. Ppl probably romanticize the Dr. Tom era because of the sweet sixteen run his lame duck year.

People romanticize the Dr. Tom era for the beginning of it, not the end.

 

[TurdBurgler]

The last game I attended in the The Criminal era was a close win over MSU where they didn't break 40. I went with my old man and we both decided when we left that winning that way was almost not worth winning.

Theres no defending the awful performances the last couple games, but Iowa is the highest scoring offense in the BIG and top 10 nationally, and its been this way for a few years now. I like Fran and I loved Dr. Tom - I'm not voting in this poll because its a stupid choice.

 

[Hawkeye_Pierce]

IMO both coaches are decent but tend to be overrated by our fans. Dr Tom for his Sweet 16s and lame duck year and Fran for replacing a shit stain and building the program back up to respectabilty. The bar at Iowa is set pretty low.

 

[ISUFan98]

Who would you rather have, arguably the greatest coach in the program's history or a coach who's won a whopping two NCAA tournament games in 8+ seasons?

Tough call. Waiting for the Iza is gay option.

 

[Match34]

Neither of them are as good as Bucky O'Connor.

 

[Shpadoinkle]

Not going to vote in the poll because I love both of these coaches, but i don't think it's enough just to remove Fran's first year in the comparison. You should probably cut the first 2, maybe three. The program was a fucking joke when he arrived. Dr. Tom inherited a team with like 7 NBA players on it. Just nuts.

Dr. Tom was a class guy who was done dirty by Bowlsby, but there is no doubt that fans were fatigued with his system by the late 90s. I still remember watching MSU teams just absolutely shred that press like a hot knife through butter. The sweet 16 run his final year really white washed the shape the program was in.

I'd also say that, aside from last year, the program under Fran has had a pretty steady upward trajectory in wins as well as recruiting. The main issue with Fran is that many of us are starting to sense that he might be getting close to hitting his ceiling. But I do have more hope as I look at what the rosters will be in the coming years.

I think a soul-searching off-season (ala New Kirk) might be in order for Fran. I know he values length but these kids have got to get stronger if they're going to compete in the current big ten.

FWIW/peace

 

[Dr. Zaius]

I think a soul-searching off-season (ala New Kirk) might be in order for Fran. I know he values length but these kids have got to get stronger if they're going to compete in the current big ten.

I don't think this is going to happen any time soon. Fran is equally, if not more, stubborn than Kirk.

Whatever it takes, just win some fucking games at the end of the year that mean something (I don't care about his NIT run)

 

[Stu Beagle]

They're both slightly above average coaches.

 

[WCFHawkeye]

Fran's biggest problem as a coach is he doesn't have a bag man. It is going to be very hard for Iowa to ever be more than an average or decent team by playing by the rules.

 

[ISUFan98]

Not going to vote in the poll because I love both of these coaches, but i don't think it's enough just to remove Fran's first year in the comparison. You should probably cut the first 2, maybe three. The program was a fucking joke when he arrived. Dr. Tom inherited a team with like 7 NBA players on it. Just nuts.

Dr. Tom was a class guy who was done dirty by Bowlsby, but there is no doubt that fans were fatigued with his system by the late 90s. I still remember watching MSU teams just absolutely shred that press like a hot knife through butter. The sweet 16 run his final year really white washed the shape the program was in.

I'd also say that, aside from last year, the program under Fran has had a pretty steady upward trajectory in wins as well as recruiting. The main issue with Fran is that many of us are starting to sense that he might be getting close to hitting his ceiling. But I do have more hope as I look at what the rosters will be in the coming years.

I think a soul-searching off-season (ala New Kirk) might be in order for Fran. I know he values length but these kids have got to get stronger if they're going to compete in the current big ten.

FWIW/peace

If you compare Fran to the standards set by Lute and Davis (and even Raveling, who made the tournament two out of his three seasons and was the best recruiting HC at Iowa probably ever), Fran still comes up short.

I understand the tendency to not pull the plug on McCaffery too soon after the mistake of replacing a proven (but probably declining) HC like Tom Davis with a douche like Alford and a total incompetent like The Criminal, but you have to be careful not to go too far in the other direction and be content with mediocrity. Two NCAA tournament wins in 8+ seasons is not sufficient for a program of Iowa's stature. The same problems seem to keep popping up every year, especially in the Big Ten. Lack of competitiveness against the elite teams of the conference, lack of athleticism, lack of decent point guards, poor defense, late season collapses, etc. And that's before you even get into his behavior, which has been a distraction multiple times.

 

[WCFHawkeye]

Who would you rather have, arguably the greatest coach in the program's history or a coach who's won a whopping two NCAA tournament games in 8+ seasons?

Tough call. Waiting for the Iza is gay option.

To me Lute Olson is the greatest coach in the program's history.

I've often wondered where Iowa basketball would be at today had he stayed a few years longer or more.

 

[The Game]

Who would you rather have, arguably the greatest coach in the program's history or a coach who's won a whopping two NCAA tournament games in 8+ seasons?

Tough call. Waiting for the Iza is gay option.

To me Lute Olson is the greatest coach in the program's history.

I've often wondered where Iowa basketball would be at today had he stayed a few years longer or more.

Blame the media for that one especially Marc Hansen.

 

[Shpadoinkle]

Not going to vote in the poll because I love both of these coaches, but i don't think it's enough just to remove Fran's first year in the comparison. You should probably cut the first 2, maybe three. The program was a fucking joke when he arrived. Dr. Tom inherited a team with like 7 NBA players on it. Just nuts.

Dr. Tom was a class guy who was done dirty by Bowlsby, but there is no doubt that fans were fatigued with his system by the late 90s. I still remember watching MSU teams just absolutely shred that press like a hot knife through butter. The sweet 16 run his final year really white washed the shape the program was in.

I'd also say that, aside from last year, the program under Fran has had a pretty steady upward trajectory in wins as well as recruiting. The main issue with Fran is that many of us are starting to sense that he might be getting close to hitting his ceiling. But I do have more hope as I look at what the rosters will be in the coming years.

I think a soul-searching off-season (ala New Kirk) might be in order for Fran. I know he values length but these kids have got to get stronger if they're going to compete in the current big ten.

FWIW/peace

If you compare Fran to the standards set by Lute and Davis (and even Raveling, who made the tournament two out of his three seasons and was the best recruiting HC at Iowa probably ever), Fran still comes up short.

I understand the tendency to not pull the plug on McCaffery too soon after the mistake of replacing a proven (but probably declining) HC like Tom Davis with a douche like Alford and a total incompetent like The Criminal, but you have to be careful not to go too far in the other direction and be content with mediocrity. Two NCAA tournament wins in 8+ seasons is not sufficient for a program of Iowa's stature. The same problems seem to keep popping up every year, especially in the Big Ten. Lack of competitiveness against the elite teams of the conference, lack of athleticism, lack of decent point guards, poor defense, late season collapses, etc. And that's before you even get into his behavior, which has been a distraction multiple times.

I get what you're saying but I still think this (bolded) is misleading. The program was the worst in the douche when Fran came in, and the administration was not going to let him rebuild the way Fred did at ISU. I don't think its fair to count the first 3 years against him, especially because we saw so much steady improvement while he was rebuilding. So you're really looking at (not counting this season) 2 tourney wins in 5 years (3 tourney appearances) plus a runner up in the NIT right before that. Then a rebuilding year with 90% freshmen and then a giant turd of a year. This year they've rebounded and are going to be dancing again, and will have most of the team back next year. They've also finished in the top half of the big ten 6 of the last 7 years. So while that might be mediocrity, it's still a solid foundation and overall moving in the right direction. Definitely not worth risking a change.

Additionally, the kids he recruits are solid humans and are easy to root for. That's a big deal for a lot of us.

 

[Shpadoinkle]

And yes, I'm well aware I posted "fuck this team" during the second half last night.

 

[Mo T]

It's Iowa basketball. The last Big Ten regular season championship was 50 years ago. The last great Iowa team isn't even a memory for those younger than 40. Their good memories are the BTT championships, and those were almost 15 years ago.

Fran is fine. Expecting him to turn Iowa into something Iowa hasn't been in 50 years is really dumb.

 

[Stu Beagle]

It's Iowa basketball. The last Big Ten regular season championship was 50 years ago. The last great Iowa team isn't even a memory for those younger than 40. Their good memories are the BTT championships, and those were almost 15 years ago.

Fran is fine. Expecting him to turn Iowa into something Iowa hasn't been in 50 years is really dumb.

They shared title in '79 so 40 years

Also, Purdue has most conference titles, which really surprised me

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Big_Ten_Conference_men's_basketball_regular_season_champions

 

[Slidewilly]

Don't even mention that miserable fuck in the same sentence as Tom Davis.

 

[Dr. Zaius]

Dr. Tom's teams never left a trail of diarrhea to end the season

 

[The Game]

Dr. Tom's teams never left a trail of diarrhea to end the season

No, but his/Fran's record is pretty much exactly the same based on their shitty eighth year.

Tom Davis after the 11 win season.. 21-12, 9-9
Fran after 14 win year last season.. 21-10, 10-10

But hey, it's different.

 

[Dr. Zaius]

Dr. Tom's teams never left a trail of diarrhea to end the season

No, but his/Fran's record is pretty much exactly the same based on their shitty eighth year.

Tom Davis after the 11 win season.. 21-12, 9-9
Fran after 14 win year last season.. 21-10, 10-10

But hey, it's different.

Dr. Tom 184 - 100
Fran 172 - 129

 

[HiawathaHawk]

Dr. Tom's teams never left a trail of diarrhea to end the season

No, but his/Fran's record is pretty much exactly the same based on their shitty eighth year.

Tom Davis after the 11 win season.. 21-12, 9-9
Fran after 14 win year last season.. 21-10, 10-10

But hey, it's different.

Dr. Tom 184 - 100
Fran 172 - 129

Yeah totally fair comparison. They basically inherited the same level of teams the first two years. Christ, this isn't complicated.

 

[The Game]

Dr. Tom's teams never left a trail of diarrhea to end the season

No, but his/Fran's record is pretty much exactly the same based on their shitty eighth year.

Tom Davis after the 11 win season.. 21-12, 9-9
Fran after 14 win year last season.. 21-10, 10-10

But hey, it's different.

Dr. Tom 184 - 100
Fran 172 - 129

Tom inherited a top 10 roster, Fran inherited a top 250 roster. Let's compare though.

Get a fucking grip.

 

[Dr. Zaius]

No, but his/Fran's record is pretty much exactly the same based on their shitty eighth year.

Tom Davis after the 11 win season.. 21-12, 9-9
Fran after 14 win year last season.. 21-10, 10-10

But hey, it's different.

Dr. Tom 184 - 100
Fran 172 - 129

Tom inherited a top 10 roster, Fran inherited a top 250 roster. Let's compare though.

Get a fucking grip.

Because Dr. Tom's teams never left a trail of diarrhea to close out a regular season

 

[nolookpass]

Least Tom was easy to like.

 

[HiawathaHawk]

Dr. Tom 184 - 100
Fran 172 - 129

Tom inherited a top 10 roster, Fran inherited a top 250 roster. Let's compare though.

Get a fucking grip.

Because Dr. Tom's teams never left a trail of diarrhea to close out a regular season

His final team went 3-5 entering the tournament (5-8 last 13), same as this team. No one cares/cared because they made the Sweet 16. I'm sure he had other teams that struggled down the stretch somewhat. This is frustrating as all hell. I'm just not sure why the sequencing became the most important factor.

 

[Slidewilly]

The issues with Fran go beyond wins and losses, although it appears that his lack of self control has affected the performance of the team as well.

 

[AZmessDAWG]

The issues with Fran go beyond wins and losses, although it appears that his lack of self control has affected the performance of the team as well.

I guess that’s where I’m at right now too. I know you can’t prove it with a stat or anything so it’s an easy opinion to shoot down.