**DePaul vs. Iowa - 11/11/19 - 7pm - FS1**

Stu Beagle

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Fran coached teams have averaged 21 wins per year the last 7 seasons. They finish an average of top half in the conference. He runs a clean program and his kids are model citizens for the most part. He is a relative bargain as the 10th highest paid coach in the conference.
Nobody gives a shit about any of that.

Assuming they don't make the tourney this year, that's 3 out of last 4 years. That's not good enough.
 

douglasbader

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Actually, if they could stomach hiring Chris Jans I would be all for firing Fran after this season if he misses the NCAA Tournament.
 

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I don't think Garza is a black hole as much as he's not good at recognizing quickly when to kick it out. His problem last night was trying to hard for too long to make a post move work, at which point he was buried under 2-3 defenders.
 

Berzerkenpas

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how does playing with better players affect your decision to launch a long 2 rather than a 3?

certainly, playing with a better group has an effect on your game, but some of the old moss shit was just between the ears malfunctioning.
That specifically? Nothing. The turnovers and such? Could quite possibly be reduced when you have better players playing around you.
less the turnovers in my mind -- which was him trying to do too much -- and more the regular looking lost in halfcourt defense, and the bonehead 2s.
 

Shpadoinkle

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how does playing with better players affect your decision to launch a long 2 rather than a 3?

certainly, playing with a better group has an effect on your game, but some of the old moss shit was just between the ears malfunctioning.
That specifically? Nothing. The turnovers and such? Could quite possibly be reduced when you have better players playing around you.
A spot up shooter just might play better with 4 and 5 star penetrating guards/wings around him?
 

douglasbader

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Fran coached teams have averaged 21 wins per year the last 7 seasons. They finish an average of top half in the conference. He runs a clean program and his kids are model citizens for the most part. He is a relative bargain as the 10th highest paid coach in the conference.
Nobody gives a shit about any of that.

Assuming they don't make the tourney this year, that's 3 out of last 4 years. That's not good enough.
Oh, you have no idea how many people give a shit about that. Wait until guys like L. Wade chime in on Jans and see how much people sit on their high horse and care about it.
 

L. Wade Childress

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If Iowa really wanted to get serious with a coaching hire that would actually likely work, then go hire Chris Jans. He would take the job in a second and is 10x the coach that Fran is and is also going to be a much better recruiter.

He has baggage, but the upside is there.
we need someone with cash to start a movement like that.
 

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Actually, if they could stomach hiring Chris Jans I would be all for firing Fran after this season if he misses the NCAA Tournament.
I'll eat a bowl of Frodo's poop if Iowa hires Chris Jans. NFW. Iowa media guys and some fans freak out about Fran making mean faces and yelling at officials - they're not taking the Jans baggage.
 
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I’ve noticed a lot of people who claim to hate “hot take culture” are pretty quick to say the Basketball team sucks two games into the season.
Sure, but it isn't as if they merely got their shit pushed in. Sometimes early season shitshows happen.

The difference in athleticism and strength between fucking DePaul and Iowa was greater than the difference between Iowa and that chick they played in the exhibition.

It's hard to envision that changing.
 

douglasbader

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Actually, if they could stomach hiring Chris Jans I would be all for firing Fran after this season if he misses the NCAA Tournament.
I'll eat a bowl of Frodo's poop if Iowa hires Chris Jans. NFW. Iowa media guys and some fans freak out about Fran making mean faces and yelling at officials - they're not taking the Jans baggage.
@Stu Beagle - told ya
 

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Remember when the big story was that Fran's wife once got thrown out of a basketball game?
 

douglasbader

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Actually, if they could stomach hiring Chris Jans I would be all for firing Fran after this season if he misses the NCAA Tournament.
I'll eat a bowl of Frodo's poop if Iowa hires Chris Jans. NFW. Iowa media guys and some fans freak out about Fran making mean faces and yelling at officials - they're not taking the Jans baggage.
Of course, Iowa would have to stomach a lot of #MeToo shit from guys like Howe / Dochterman and maybe some University protests, but after that it would go away.

It is just another way that Alford completely fucked Iowa Basketball and why they won't dare take a chance on anyone with even mild issues.
 

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Actually, if they could stomach hiring Chris Jans I would be all for firing Fran after this season if he misses the NCAA Tournament.
I'll eat a bowl of Frodo's poop if Iowa hires Chris Jans. NFW. Iowa media guys and some fans freak out about Fran making mean faces and yelling at officials - they're not taking the Jans baggage.
Of course, Iowa would have to stomach a lot of #MeToo shit from guys like Howe / Dochterman and maybe some University protests, but after that it would go away.

It is just another way that Alford completely fucked Iowa Basketball and why they won't dare take a chance on anyone with even mild issues.
Don't get me wrong - I'd be fine with Iowa hiring Jans. I'm just saying they're not going to do it, and you're right, there's way more Iowa fans than those of us on this message board think who eat up that stupid "Win, Graduate, Do it Right" nonsense.
 

Shpadoinkle

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Actually, if they could stomach hiring Chris Jans I would be all for firing Fran after this season if he misses the NCAA Tournament.
I'll eat a bowl of Frodo's poop if Iowa hires Chris Jans. NFW. Iowa media guys and some fans freak out about Fran making mean faces and yelling at officials - they're not taking the Jans baggage.
Of course, Iowa would have to stomach a lot of #MeToo shit from guys like Howe / Dochterman and maybe some University protests, but after that it would go away.

It is just another way that Alford completely fucked Iowa Basketball and why they won't dare take a chance on anyone with even mild issues.
What if he tried to paint the visitor's locker room pink?

 

douglasbader

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Remember when the big story was that Fran's wife once got thrown out of a basketball game?
Iowa Fan is absurd. They want to compete in basketball and get competitive like other schools while at the same time showing extreme outrage at Fran yelling during timeouts and Brian Ferentz cussing at an official.

You either have to stomach the backlash and ignore the outrage or be happy being exactly what we currently are.
 

AZmess

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Iowa should be doing what Wisconsin does in basketball. They recruit at the same level as we do. But they have been better coached for 20 years now and are tough. There’s no reason why iowa couldn’t do that with where they can recruit from.
 

douglasbader

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I'll eat a bowl of Frodo's poop if Iowa hires Chris Jans. NFW. Iowa media guys and some fans freak out about Fran making mean faces and yelling at officials - they're not taking the Jans baggage.
Of course, Iowa would have to stomach a lot of #MeToo shit from guys like Howe / Dochterman and maybe some University protests, but after that it would go away.

It is just another way that Alford completely fucked Iowa Basketball and why they won't dare take a chance on anyone with even mild issues.
Don't get me wrong - I'd be fine with Iowa hiring Jans. I'm just saying they're not going to do it, and you're right, there's way more Iowa fans than those of us on this message board think who eat up that stupid "Win, Graduate, Do it Right" nonsense.
Exactly, which is why instead of ever competing at a high level they claim to want they are going to keep Iowa self stuck exactly where they are.

NCAA Basketball is a dirty business. That doesn't mean you have to offer bags of cash or hire rape enablers, but there is hardly a coach at the highest Top 25 level that is squeaky clean. The one that possibly was had enough of it and decided it was better to go and coach one of the worst teams in the NBA.

Last night is a good example. DePaul has been terrible for a long time, but they finally have someone that can not only coach but is more than willing to get his hands dirty. Charlie Moore and half of that roster is dirty by Fran standards. They are taking players with extreme baggage but big time talent now.
 

douglasbader

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Iowa should be doing what Wisconsin does in basketball. They recruit at the same level as we do. But they have been better coached for 20 years now and are tough. There’s no reason why iowa couldn’t do that with where they can recruit from.
I know this will sound stupid, but fuck that. I hate Wisconsin an how they play even if they are winning. The last thing I want to see is ugly fucking games in the 40's

There is a balance between Fran and that bullshit.
 

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Iowa should be doing what Wisconsin does in basketball. They recruit at the same level as we do. But they have been better coached for 20 years now and are tough. There’s no reason why iowa couldn’t do that with where they can recruit from.
I'm actually impressed that Fran has done as well as he has with the finesse type brand of basketball he wants to play. He'd be a hell of a two hand touch football coach.
 

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The fundamental problem is that Fran, for the most part, isn’t appealing enough to land non-marginal athletic players. And having two of his kids on the roster and in the regular rotation doesn’t help the program’s appeal.
The problem isn’t having the McCaffery’s on the team. They’re scholarship-worthy. I know the nepotism freaks will disagree but it’s true.

The problem is he can’t recruit at a high enough level to play the way he wants to play. He could adjust his style of play to match what he can recruit but I don’t see that happening.
I think having them negatively effects recruiting some but putting aside my disagreement with you on Connor (and maybe Patrick but I'll agree to a wait and see) can you please elaborate on this? What do you think is high enough level? Are you talking stars or athletes. I don't necessarily give a shit on number of stars a recruit has next to his name but I can turn on any MAC game and see a bunch of kids that would run circles around Iowa players. Given the chance I suspect the athlete who may turn the ball over 3-5 times a game gives us a better chance to win than the less athletic smart kids.

Fran is always in on the type of athletes who appear to be good players but can never close. His fallbacks options are really bothersome though. Using our defensive backs as an example, Iowa offers many highly rated kids and then also recruits athletes from inner cities that have MAC offers as secondary targets and then fills out the roster with Tommy Soybeans. Connor and the Murray twins should be the the soybeans, not primary or secondary members of the class.

There is no reason you cant get some really athletic black kids to come to Iowa to play basketball. Iowa State does it. Iowa football convinces kids to move from Georgia and Florida to Iowa. We can't get a bunch of kids from Chicago and Detroit?
 

nolookpass

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Iowas probably got the highest average age of its coaching staff of any division 1 program
 

nolookpass

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When the coaching staff gets together they probably drink grainbelt and watch video of the 1969 New York Knicks
 

L. Wade Childress

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If I am Barta I am definitely talking to agents as this season plays out given what the 2020 class looks like. At some point, as Mikey mentioned, a program hits stagnation and you have to look at different options BEFORE apathy sets in. Fran has not been coaching at a high-level long enough to have fuck you money so I would imagine that he would want to finish out his career at a mid major in theory he this was his last year at iowa.

so I guess I fall in this weird area of both feeling like Fran is underappreciated and also being ready to move on. Honestly aside from the weird volleyball deal Gary has made a number of very good hires over the last several years. I think he has become better connected in the industry as his career has progressed. He is certainly more respected outside of Iowa then by our own fans. I think we could get a number of decent candidates provided that our roster wasn’t completely depleted of talent when we make the change.
 

AZmess

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Iowa should be doing what Wisconsin does in basketball. They recruit at the same level as we do. But they have been better coached for 20 years now and are tough. There’s no reason why iowa couldn’t do that with where they can recruit from.
I know this will sound stupid, but fuck that. I hate Wisconsin an how they play even if they are winning. The last thing I want to see is ugly fucking games in the 40's

There is a balance between Fran and that bullshit.
Well A) I think it’s a misconception that Wisconsin plays the Dick Bennett style still. They don’t. They play hard and they make you guard and conversely they guard the crap out of you too.

The The Criminal style was an abomination for a myriad of reasons but number 1 more than anything else, was the recruiting was fucking abysmal. So to say we’ve tried that already isn’t really accurate.

I guess what I’m saying is iowa needs to own their backyard in recruiting and start playing tough and not like a bunch of pussies. I don’t think Fran can really do either of those at this point.
 

L. Wade Childress

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Also if we miss the tournament this year then I will really struggle to renew my season tickets next year given what we have coming in. I’m just at the point in my life where I have way too much shit going on to go to a high number of the games, but if I felt motivated by the program I would still likely keep sending in the check.
 

douglasbader

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We should also look at the journey to how Iowa got where they are.....

Late 70's / Early 80's - Lute Olson turns out to be a Hall of Fame level coach that can recruit. He moves on to better circumstances and becomes an NCAA Championship coach as well

Mid-80's / Late 80's - George Raveling is a bad coach but great recruiter because he pays for top players

Late-80's / Most of 90's - Dr. Tom is a good coach that does really well with Raveling's paid recruits. He rides that to being a pretty good recruiter himself initially until he gets sort of old and lazy and would rather be golfing and is forced out

Late 90's / Mid 00's - Alford is the hot name and recruiter. He makes some splashes but his shitty coaching and personality and other factors tank after a few years and he rides out of town to a mid-major

Late 00's - The Criminal is coach of the year but he is a disaster in every way. Shitty recruiter and even shittier coach that is obsessed with his old Butler job and wants to be back there. He flames out and never does anything relevant again

Late 00's / 10's - Fran is a older but damn good mid-major coach that runs a good program and has a style. He turns Iowa around quickly from the depths of Lick. He is a great at evaluating talent but shitty at closing on his targets. He misses out on multiple PG's that would have gotten him over the top. His personality is a negative to many and ultimately Iowa has hit a ceiling despite averaging roughly 21 wins per year.

If you look at this in long form, Iowa got pretty lucky with Lute and then Raveling got enough players to allow Dr. Tom to be successful for a lot of years. Alford was ultimately a miss, Lick was a disaster and Fran has been steady but unspectacular.
 

AZmess

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The fundamental problem is that Fran, for the most part, isn’t appealing enough to land non-marginal athletic players. And having two of his kids on the roster and in the regular rotation doesn’t help the program’s appeal.
The problem isn’t having the McCaffery’s on the team. They’re scholarship-worthy. I know the nepotism freaks will disagree but it’s true.

The problem is he can’t recruit at a high enough level to play the way he wants to play. He could adjust his style of play to match what he can recruit but I don’t see that happening.
I think having them negatively effects recruiting some but putting aside my disagreement with you on Connor (and maybe Patrick but I'll agree to a wait and see) can you please elaborate on this? What do you think is high enough level? Are you talking stars or athletes. I don't necessarily give a shit on number of stars a recruit has next to his name but I can turn on any MAC game and see a bunch of kids that would run circles around Iowa players. Given the chance I suspect the athlete who may turn the ball over 3-5 times a game gives us a better chance to win than the less athletic smart kids.

Fran is always in on the type of athletes who appear to be good players but can never close. His fallbacks options are really bothersome though. Using our defensive backs as an example, Iowa offers many highly rated kids and then also recruits athletes from inner cities that have MAC offers as secondary targets and then fills out the roster with Tommy Soybeans. Connor and the Murray twins should be the the soybeans, not primary or secondary members of the class.

There is no reason you cant get some really athletic black kids to come to Iowa to play basketball. Iowa State does it. Iowa football convinces kids to move from Georgia and Florida to Iowa. We can't get a bunch of kids from Chicago and Detroit?
They aren’t nearly athletic enough to het higher than mid level of the big ten. And when they are athletic enough, I don’t think they are put in a position to succeed. Essentially I don’t think they’re well coached. At all.
 

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I don't think Fran deserves to be fired, and I admit the odds are pretty good that Iowa wouldn't be a better team with whomever Barta would hire to replace him at the helm. I get that.

But last night, watching that, I just couldn't help but think that I'm just tired of watching Fran coached teams.
I, too, am ready to start watching a different type of loss even if (hopefully temporarily) there are a few more of them. Watching Fran teams get physically blown off the court year after year is just a special kind of depressing.
 

Verbal

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Is there any chance that DePaul is actually just legitimately pretty good?
 

douglasbader

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The other thing about Fran and eventually getting rid of him, especially if it is after this year, you aren't really concerned about losing his kids for the most part.

I think Pat is going to be really good, but not good enough that you pass on a great coach if the opportunity is there. Connor isn't a concern at all.
 

douglasbader

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Is there any chance that DePaul is actually just legitimately pretty good?
I think they actually are going to be really good and a surprise and most all the other twitter basketball media guys last night did as well.

It won't be a shock if they are a NCAA Tournament team, they have a ton of talent.
 

Verbal

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They looked good to me, Iowa's poor play notwithstanding. It was also their 4th game of the year, so they've had a little more time to gel. That probably matters a little bit.
 
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If I am Barta I am definitely talking to agents as this season plays out given what the 2020 class looks like. At some point, as Mikey mentioned, a program hits stagnation and you have to look at different options BEFORE apathy sets in. Fran has not been coaching at a high-level long enough to have fuck you money so I would imagine that he would want to finish out his career at a mid major in theory he this was his last year at iowa.

so I guess I fall in this weird area of both feeling like Fran is underappreciated and also being ready to move on. Honestly aside from the weird volleyball deal Gary has made a number of very good hires over the last several years. I think he has become better connected in the industry as his career has progressed. He is certainly more respected outside of Iowa then by our own fans. I think we could get a number of decent candidates provided that our roster wasn’t completely depleted of talent when we make the change.
Garta is a turd.
 

L. Wade Childress

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So I am watching the replay over lunch

first depaul basket- Nunge lost and slow to recover on perimeter, comes down and makes awkward rushed runner and misses

second depaul basket- mental mistake by CJ, then dribbles off foot at other end after a stop. Makes up for it with steal, but we miss another awkward runner

3rd basket- legit good post up

4th basket- runout after awful Nunge pass into no mans land, somehow Connor credited with TO

5th basket- runout results in corner three after Connor beats Moore off dribble and Nunge misses a bunny.

13-0, game over. We outscore them the rest of the game. This stuff can all be fixed.
 

Wayne Rogers

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Is there any chance that DePaul is actually just legitimately pretty good?
vs Alcorn State W 72-54
vs Chicago W 84-55
vs Fairleigh Dickinson W 70-59
@ Iowa W 93-78 (First road game, 4th game is 7 days)

They averaged 75 points at home to lesser teams (including a D3 team) before trouncing Iowa on the road.
 

L. Wade Childress

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The other thing about Fran and eventually getting rid of him, especially if it is after this year, you aren't really concerned about losing his kids for the most part.

I think Pat is going to be really good, but not good enough that you pass on a great coach if the opportunity is there. Connor isn't a concern at all.
patrick also adds to frans attractiveness as a candidate for a lower level school.
 

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The problem isn’t having the McCaffery’s on the team. They’re scholarship-worthy. I know the nepotism freaks will disagree but it’s true.

The problem is he can’t recruit at a high enough level to play the way he wants to play. He could adjust his style of play to match what he can recruit but I don’t see that happening.
I think having them negatively effects recruiting some but putting aside my disagreement with you on Connor (and maybe Patrick but I'll agree to a wait and see) can you please elaborate on this? What do you think is high enough level? Are you talking stars or athletes. I don't necessarily give a shit on number of stars a recruit has next to his name but I can turn on any MAC game and see a bunch of kids that would run circles around Iowa players. Given the chance I suspect the athlete who may turn the ball over 3-5 times a game gives us a better chance to win than the less athletic smart kids.

Fran is always in on the type of athletes who appear to be good players but can never close. His fallbacks options are really bothersome though. Using our defensive backs as an example, Iowa offers many highly rated kids and then also recruits athletes from inner cities that have MAC offers as secondary targets and then fills out the roster with Tommy Soybeans. Connor and the Murray twins should be the the soybeans, not primary or secondary members of the class.

There is no reason you cant get some really athletic black kids to come to Iowa to play basketball. Iowa State does it. Iowa football convinces kids to move from Georgia and Florida to Iowa. We can't get a bunch of kids from Chicago and Detroit?
They aren’t nearly athletic enough to het higher than mid level of the big ten. And when they are athletic enough, I don’t think they are put in a position to succeed. Essentially I don’t think they’re well coached. At all.
This was the biggest issue with the Billy Taylor hire. Frans a great offensive coach, but that doesn't mean a whole lot when you're giving up 91. I hate to compare them because he's not even 1/10th of the coach Beilein is, but he admitted to himself at Michigan that he needed to bring in someone to coach them defensively. Fran was gifted that opportunity when Francis left and he basically went with the status quo.

I do think the turnover numbers will decrease as the year goes on. The whole team basically freaked out when they got down early and started making awful decisions. But there is just no way the defensive side of the ball will improve. It hasn't for 4 years. Their only hope is the 3/4 court press slowing teams down and shortening the shot clock which puts a ton of pressure on you to score to set it up. In man or zone these guys have been terrible since Woody left.
 

nolookpass

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unfortunately they're not going to have bohannon's crazy shooting to bail them out multiple times this year. It's going to be a long season, lads
 

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So I am watching the replay over lunch

first depaul basket- Nunge lost and slow to recover on perimeter, comes down and makes awkward rushed runner and misses

second depaul basket- mental mistake by CJ, then dribbles off foot at other end after a stop. Makes up for it with steal, but we miss another awkward runner

3rd basket- legit good post up

4th basket- runout after awful Nunge pass into no mans land, somehow Connor credited with TO

5th basket- runout results in corner three after Connor beats Moore off dribble and Nunge misses a bunny.

13-0, game over. We outscore them the rest of the game. This stuff can all be fixed.
Dude. You can't be serious.
 

Talkin' Goat

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At least with basketball, there’s a chance that a new coach comes in and improves things quickly. A couple recruits can make a huge difference. Not saying that’s expected, of course, but that does at least bring some excitement about change. Whenever that may be.
 

Tugboat

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So I am watching the replay over lunch

first depaul basket- Nunge lost and slow to recover on perimeter, comes down and makes awkward rushed runner and misses

second depaul basket- mental mistake by CJ, then dribbles off foot at other end after a stop. Makes up for it with steal, but we miss another awkward runner

3rd basket- legit good post up

4th basket- runout after awful Nunge pass into no mans land, somehow Connor credited with TO

5th basket- runout results in corner three after Connor beats Moore off dribble and Nunge misses a bunny.

13-0, game over. We outscore them the rest of the game. This stuff can all be fixed.
Dude. You can't be serious.
He has to be fucking work is this entire thread.

He’s been a Connor fan from day one.
 
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So I am watching the replay over lunch

first depaul basket- Nunge lost and slow to recover on perimeter, comes down and makes awkward rushed runner and misses

second depaul basket- mental mistake by CJ, then dribbles off foot at other end after a stop. Makes up for it with steal, but we miss another awkward runner

3rd basket- legit good post up

4th basket- runout after awful Nunge pass into no mans land, somehow Connor credited with TO

5th basket- runout results in corner three after Connor beats Moore off dribble and Nunge misses a bunny.

13-0, game over. We outscore them the rest of the game. This stuff can all be fixed.
DePaul was ahead by 13. Iowa outscored them the rest of the way. DePaul wins by 15.

Adds up.
 

Berzerkenpas

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So I am watching the replay over lunch

first depaul basket- Nunge lost and slow to recover on perimeter, comes down and makes awkward rushed runner and misses

second depaul basket- mental mistake by CJ, then dribbles off foot at other end after a stop. Makes up for it with steal, but we miss another awkward runner

3rd basket- legit good post up

4th basket- runout after awful Nunge pass into no mans land, somehow Connor credited with TO

5th basket- runout results in corner three after Connor beats Moore off dribble and Nunge misses a bunny.

13-0, game over. We outscore them the rest of the game. This stuff can all be fixed.
DePaul was ahead by 13. Iowa outscored them the rest of the way. DePaul wins by 15.

Adds up.
 

The Incredible Hawk

Will Spineboard You
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So I am watching the replay over lunch

first depaul basket- Nunge lost and slow to recover on perimeter, comes down and makes awkward rushed runner and misses

second depaul basket- mental mistake by CJ, then dribbles off foot at other end after a stop. Makes up for it with steal, but we miss another awkward runner

3rd basket- legit good post up

4th basket- runout after awful Nunge pass into no mans land, somehow Connor credited with TO

5th basket- runout results in corner three after Connor beats Moore off dribble and Nunge misses a bunny.

13-0, game over. We outscore them the rest of the game. This stuff can all be fixed.
Dude. You can't be serious.
No shit. It was 19-2 ninety seconds after this.
 
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