Smart turns down Illinois

[ISUFan98]

Groce has a 34-30 record in the MAC. He does have 2 NCAA tournament appearances with a 3-2 record in the tournament, however, despite never finishing higher than 3rd in MAC regular season play.

Does Bruce Van De Velde work in Illinois' athletic department these days?

 

[BBK]

I guess Buzz Williams has no interest either.

 

[BBK]

From the Chicago Sun-Times:

Groce is a pedestrian 34-30 in the Mid-American Conference in four years, typically a NCAA one-bid league with finishes of sixth, fifth and two thirds in what has been a pretty poor league in comparison to other mid-major conferences like the Missouri Valley Conference and Horizon League. His overall record is 85-56. Yes, there are three NCAA Tournament wins under his belt, which is clearly the selling point on his resumé. But this was an Ohio team that probably wouldn't have even made the NIT this year if it didn't get hot and win the MAC Tournament.

But in the end, is Illinois really going to hire a mid-major coach with less credentials and a shorter resumé than the last mid-major coach it hired? Bruce Weber went 103-54 at Southern Illinois in a far superior league, won two Missouri Valley Conference titles, went to one NIT and two NCAA Tournaments, including a Sweet 16.

Today I asked a high-profile player in Illinois and a couple of high-profile high school coaches in Chicago, "What about John Groce?"

The reaction from one of the coaches and the player, after a pause, was "Who's John Groce?" Who is John Groce?!?!?!

The other coach said, "He's the bald coach who played North Carolina the other day, right? No way they can hire him ... Can they? They needed to hit a home run with this hire. Sounds like an infield single."

Then I checked in with some of the current young Illinois players' "people" regarding Groce. Well, um ...

And you think Vinny Del Negro is having a rough time? Wait till this hire goes down.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/hoopsreport/2012/03/just_cant_get_enough_of_illino.html

I have to say I'm really enjoying this. Fuck Illinois.

 

[Lime]

Groce did spend nearly a decade with Thad Matta including four at Ohio State where he was supposedly a good recruiter. That conference record four years in is pretty meh though, especially considering Ohio had been a decent program before he was there.

I don't get why programs mess around with 4th or 5th mid-major choice. If you can't get the Smart/Marshall types that are reasonable bets to succeed, make a Godfather offer to a coach with proven power conference success. Isn't paying Kevin Stallings $2.5M a better bet than paying John Groce $1.5M?

 

[BBK]

Even a NBA assistant or a high major assistant from somewhere like Duke or UNC would make more sense than Groce, in my opinion.

 

[BBK]

Hell, despite the fact that Gregg Marshall has a terrible NCAA tournament record, he would make more sense than Groce.

 

[Lime]

the power three in the Big Ten right are are Tom Izzo (7 Big Ten titles, 5 Final Fours), Thad Matta (5 Big Ten titles, 2 Final Fours + an Elite 8 at Xavier), and Tom Crean (zero Big Ten titles, 1 Final Four at Marquette, but rebuilt a ravaged program into a Sweet 16 and is grabbing top five classes) and Illinois wants to go with John Groce.

 

[BBK]

That same sun times blogger added a note at the end of the article claiming that Frank Martin may be interested.

 

[Kerky]

Illinois is a mess on so many levels. They just forced out their president and promoted from within. Their relatively new AD canned Zook to bring in a modestly successful MAC coach. The AD desperately needed a home run hire for basketball and is proceeding to piss it down his leg. The AD will probably be canned down the road again too.

 

[MikeyJoe]

The AD desperately needed a home run hire for basketball and is proceeding to piss it down his leg.

They were talking about this on the radio this morning. There's no reason that Illinois can't still get a good coach. The problem is that they sort of put all of their eggs in the Smart basket, wanting to wow everyone with the candidate they brought in. Then Stevens turned them down, who would have been less of an impact but still a known guy. Now whoever they get, it just looks like they're settling.

 

[BBK]

I think they should throw 3 mil a year at Frank Martin. I don't want them to do that, but that's what I think they should do. He's already been in talks with South Carolina so you know he's shopping around. And 3 mil a year would be nearly double his salary at K-State.

The only problem with Martin is with the exception of his first year, he hasn't been all that great of a recruiter. That could be more of a product of having to recruit to Manhattan, Kansas than anything else, however.

 

[valp0guy]

Groce (along with Belien), was probably my favorite coach that I got to interact with at the NCAA Tournament. Really nice guy.

 

[cjhawks]

Kaplan mentioned Jay Wright last night on twitter.


I laughed myself to sleep.

 

[BBK]

Kaplan mentioned Jay Wright last night on twitter.


I laughed myself to sleep.

LOL. No fucking way. Is he high?

 

[imissjoeyrange]

Frank Martin is out of play: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/26/3514005/report-south-carolina-to-hire.html

 

[ISUFan98]

Whoa. I can't see Martin leaving for South Carolina of all places. They must be paying him a shitload more than $1.5 million a year.

 

[fuisu98]

Frank Martin is out of play: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/26/3514005/report-south-carolina-to-hire.html

Did anyone else hear Martin say that he used to send money to some of his former plaers when they were in college? It was on CBS yesterday and they were discussing it on Mike and Mike. Is there any way that the NCAA doesnt start taking a look at Frank?

 

[Kerky]

I think they should throw 3 mil a year at Frank Martin. I don't want them to do that, but that's what I think they should do. He's already been in talks with South Carolina so you know he's shopping around. And 3 mil a year would be nearly double his salary at K-State.

The only problem with Martin is with the exception of his first year, he hasn't been all that great of a recruiter. That could be more of a product of having to recruit to Manhattan, Kansas than anything else, however.

Well, if they pay him anywhere near that range, he should have a lot more for the players:

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/tournament/2012/story/_/id/7737800/kansas-state-wildcats-frank-martin-paid-former-prep-players

 

[cjhawks]

Kaplan mentioned Jay Wright last night on twitter.


I laughed myself to sleep.

LOL. No fucking way. Is he high?

He did, and probably.

I believe the tweet was "Jay Wright would be great" or something like that.

 

[BBK]

Illinois' coaching search may be my favorite sports story so far this year.

 

[Will McCoy]

Vinny Del Negro!

 

[BBK]

Looks like it's Groce, Chris Collins from Duke, Theus, or bust at this point.

 

[HiawathaHawk]

Whoa. I can't see Martin leaving for South Carolina of all places. They must be paying him a shitload more than $1.5 million a year.

It's due to him and his AD at KSU hating each other.

 

[BBK]

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=169&f=2616

Some real wonderful reading on this board.

 

[jd10]

Frank Martin is out of play: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/26/3514005/report-south-carolina-to-hire.html

Did anyone else hear Martin say that he used to send money to some of his former plaers when they were in college? It was on CBS yesterday and they were discussing it on Mike and Mike. Is there any way that the NCAA doesnt start taking a look at Frank?

I caught the tail end of that. WTF was he talking about?

 

[Slidewilly]

Not surprised to see Martin go to SCarolina. He can recruit to USC more easily than to Manhattan, KS--particularly from the Miami area where he is still held in...ahem...high regard.

 

[Hawkstrat]

Kaplan mentioned Jay Wright last night on twitter.


I laughed myself to sleep.

LOL. No fucking way. Is he high?

I'm assuming Kaplan is trying to keep expectations completely unreasonable so he can wallow in the meltdown- he is a douche.

I don't know if this Groce is a terrible hire, he was named recruiter of the year (or something like that) while at Ohio State, and despite the less than impressive overall record at Ohio, his teams have improved just about ever year.

The one huge red flag is when you throw in the previous four finishes.

Ohio has finished 9th, 9th, 5th and 3rd- in that order, which seems to indicate nice improvement, but Ohio had finished 2nd, 5th, 5th and 4th the precious four years. Perhaps they had an important senior class graduate when Groce took over.

 

[HiawathaHawk]

He had 3 returning starters in his first season and 6 of his top 7 were returners.

He's not necessarily a bad hire and you never know how these things will work out. But I definitely would have expected them to do better.

 

[bigazzturkeylegs]

Hiring a mid-major coach based on a few wins in the tournament sounds like a great plan.

 

[BBK]

Decent post over on Illinois' scout.com board. I don't agree with all of it, but there is some interesting stuff in there:

Alright, I've been a bit hysterical in my criticism of Groce, so lest anyone think I've gone completely mental, let me more eloquently state why I believe he is poorly qualified for this job.

1. There is a misconception that Ohio is a difficult place to win. That's not the case, they are a historically good MAC program, and Groce was handed a fine (not great, but above .500) program from his predecessor Tim O'Shea, who left of his own accord to coach closer to his native New England at Bryant University. The program had had four straight winning records in conference and overall when Groce took over. There was no "rebuilding" period.

2. The head coaching track record is simply middling. The 34-30 number in the MAC has been repeated ad-nauseam, but you have to put that into context. Find other major-conference coaches who were mid-major guys first. Bruce Weber was 62-28 at SIU, Fran McCaffery was 68-22 at Siena, Thad Matta was 39-9 at Xavier, John Beilein was 56-23 at Richmond, Mike Brey was 60-30 at Delaware, Jay Wright was 76-47 after taking over a disaster at Hofstra, Mick Cronin was 42-10 at Murray State, John Thompson was 45-11 at Princeton, Self was 30-12 at Tulsa, Mark Gottfried was 40-12 at Murray State, Ben Howland was 44-28 after taking over a disaster at Northern Arizona, the list goes on and on. Quality coaches will dominate at the MAC level of play. Their major-conference qualities will reveal themselves even more strongly at that level. Groce hasn't done that. Even this year he came in 3rd at 11-5. If you're getting consistently beaten by Keith Dambrot and Geno Ford, what are Tom Izzo and Thad Matta going to do to you?

3. A sweet sixteen is nice. But 3 tournament wins get drowned out under the weight of the other evidence. It was three games against teams that didn't respect them, didn't see them coming, didn't have them thoroughly scouted, and were played at that frenetic, crazy tournament mental pace that isn't a good comparison to normal college basketball. It means far more whether Groce's teams can go win a conference road game, or recover after a deflating loss.

4. Groce's success at Ohio has been built largely around two players, Armon Bassett and Walter Offutt. Both were experienced transfers from major programs. We've just gotten rid of a coach who couldn't develop talented recruits, and we are getting a coach who hasn't shown the ability to develop his own big-time talent either. You can't rely on transfers schooled in the game by better coaches at Illinois.

5. Groce's reputation as a recruiter is almost entirely built around the Oden-Conley class at Ohio State. There are two giant holes to be blown in that feather in his cap, however. First of all, both Oden and Conley were coached in AAU by Groce's half-brother. This brother is no longer working as an AAU coach. Plus, the lead recruiter for that class was really Daequan Cook, who was as active as anyone in convincing Oden and Conley to jump aboard. Groce was in the right place at the right time.

6. I wish it weren't, but race is an issue here. If we were going to hire a Brad Stevens, a brand name, proven guy that would command immediate respect, that would be one thing. But to settle on a white guy with meager qualifications when you've got an arguably better qualified guy like Reggie Theus (not to mention, say, Bruiser Flint or something) seems like it's not giving any weight whatsoever to a desire for diversity. Somewhere in the media there will be a picture of Tim Beckman and John Groce's headshots side-by-side, and, through no fault of their own, they aren't just white, they are apple-cheeked, Norman Rockwell white. It will not look good, and we're wasting a golden chance to make a historic hire.

7. Groce's personality, while great for a feature story, and great for Paul Klee, is just not befitting of a Big Ten head coach. He's the classic energy-guy good cop that is great as an assistant, but lost as a head coach. His schtick will wear thin with major-conference level players, Illinois fans, recruits, coaches, everybody. Everyone complained about Weber's histrionics, but Groce is twice that bad. Every Division 1 college coach is a "hard worker", they are more than that really, it's about the toughest, most endless job you can imagine. When a coach gets the label of a "caffeine-junkie/gym rat/tireless work ethic guy" it's a schtick, and often because they just don't have any other positive qualities to define them.

8. There are just so many other better candidates, even among low-star-power mid-major types. Why has Scott Sutton's name not been brought up? Why hasn't Tim Cluess'? I could go on and on, Bob McKillop, Randy Bennett, Tony Bennett, Brad Brownell, Tony Barbee, Dave Leitao, Jeff Capel, Donnie Jones and those are just names I haven't heard. Chris Collins and Reggie Theus are also excellent candidates that would take the job. Billy Gillispie is also an interesting idea. What the hell happened to Gregg Marshall?

9. I want to respond specifically to the "well, tOSU fans want him to replace Matta" thing. First of all, talk is cheap in that regard, their program is dominant and stable with Matta at the helm, he's going nowhere, so of course their fans want one of "their guys" to replace him, that's just blind, unresearched loyalty with no sense of the risk involved. And secondly, think about it, if Jerrance Howard were to take over, say, Loyola, and perform relatively poorly but go on a fluky tournament run one time, we would be loving on him like white on rice. He's one of our guys, of course we would ignore the flaws and praise him. He is essentially the Jerrance of that program, and that's all it is.

10. Finally, unfortunately, the fan bases reaction to his candidacy. There are genuine concerns, but even if Groce were a great candidate, a coaching hire can sometimes be like an organ transplant, it can get rejected by the host body before you even get a chance to find out whether it works. Ask Ron Zook. We don't want that to happen.

So please, everyone, avoid the false dichotomy that "Well no big-time coaches want the job, the Illinois job sucks, we have to settle for John Groce." It looks like we will have to settle for our next coach, at least in the eyes of the market. But when this process started, my personal shortlist was Chris Collins, Gregg Marshall, Shaka Smart, Reggie Theus, Anthony Grant, in that order. Only #3 (and possibly #5, we aren't sure) have turned us down. This isn't the disaster it looks like, but it will become one if MT panics, grabs the "hot name" in hopes of saving face, and hires a guy who is not fit to be a Big Ten head coach in John Groce.


Now, it looks inevitable that he's the hire. Between that fact, my weariness with the whole subject of the coaching change, the fact that I've wanted to take some time away for awhile, and the old adage that "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all", this is going to be my last post for awhile, maybe for quite a long while, I don't know. ("Good riddance", says pretty much everyone) So I'll sign off just by saying this: If Bruce Weber was our Herb Sendek or Steve Alford, then John Groce is our Sidney Lowe or Todd The Criminal. But that only gets us closer to our Mark Gottfried or Fran McCaffery. Hang in there, Illini Nation.

 

[MikeyJoe]

If Bruce Weber was our Herb Sendek or Steve Alford, then John Groce is our Sidney Lowe or Todd The Criminal. But that only gets us closer to our Mark Gottfried or Fran McCaffery


LOL

 

[Hawkstrat]

First of all, both Oden and Conley were coached in AAU by Groce's half-brother. This brother is no longer working as an AAU coach.

That's pretty interesting.

 

[BBK]

First of all, both Oden and Conley were coached in AAU by Groce's half-brother. This brother is no longer working as an AAU coach.

That's pretty interesting.

It is indeed.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

I enjoyed that post.

 

[Hacksaw Jim Duggan]

They should just hire the sketchy inner city coach from hoopdreams and be done with it. If there's one thing I love is an unhappy orange crush fanbase

 

[douglasbader]

I like that they just traded out Weber for Weber, which was the exact situation they were trying to avoid.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

why would they hire groce over Collins? I thought Hamilton was like begging for the job?

 

[MikeyJoe]

I like that they just traded out Weber for Weber, which was the exact situation they were trying to avoid.

Weber for sub-Weber, really.

 

[douglasbader]

What are they paying him?

 

[MikeyJoe]

What are they paying him?

Don't think it's final yet. It just feels sort of inevitable to Illini fans.

 

[MikeyJoe]

Haugh at the Trib skewers the AD: http://trib.in/GW462S

 

[HawkLax6]

First of all, both Oden and Conley were coached in AAU by Groce's half-brother. This brother is no longer working as an AAU coach.

That's pretty interesting.

I just read Mark Titus' book and he said that Mike Conley's dad was their AAU coach (or maybe he was one of the coaches?).

 

[Slidewilly]

I just hope they don't pull a rabbit out of the hat at the last minute. The only thing better than this would be reading the Clone boards if Hoiberg took the Portland job.

 

[BBK]

why would they hire groce over Collins? I thought Hamilton was like begging for the job?

Hamilton decided he doesn't want it. Sources from the sun-times and the tribune said Illinois reached out to him and he declined.

 

[fuisu98]

I enjoyed that post.

Classy post. I will be cheering for him the rest of the way.

 

[MikeyJoe]

Announcement at 3:00.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/03/27/report-illini-to-announce-basketball-coach-at-3pm-press-conference/



EDIT: NEVER MIND, NOTHING TO SEE HERE

Illinois Basketball ‏ @IlliniHoopsContrary to reports/sources, there will not be an #Illini press conference today.

 

[MikeyJoe]

Joe Ostrowski ‏ @JoeO670
John Groce will be introduced today as the new #Illini head coach at 3pm in Champaign

 

[bigazzturkeylegs]

Clusterfuck.

 

[BBK]

Illinois is hiring Todd The Criminal. This is going to be an epic disaster.

 

[Rodney Farva]

We will see Farva..Evan Turner sure spoke VERY highly of him..He's an extremely elite recruiter.

Text from one of my Illini buddies.